As the country welcomes a new political dispensation notable Nigerians have continued to speak out on the best way the administration will ensure sanity and transparency in the business of governance, kill corruption, institute social justice and reward merit. Among them is Prof. Sule Bello, Head of Department, History, Ahmadu Bello University, Zaria. Bello, a Doctor of Philosophy in African Economic History and also an expert in Political Economy, is Chairman, Africa Research And Development Agency Kano; President, Nigeria Crafts Council Kano; President, Nigeria Heritage Society, Kano; and member, Kano State Stakeholders Forum. He also serves as a Resource Person to UNESCO, UNDP, ABU Consultancy Services, and Centre for Research and Training, Bayero University, Kano. In this interview with MADUABUCHI NMERIBEH, Bello posits the best political theory that will suit Nigeria’s situation and lift the country out from socio-economic and political mess. He also sets agenda for the President-elect, General Muhammadu Buhari

There has been so much complaints about how expensive it is to run a presidential system of government in a developing country like Nigeria. What is your view about this?

My view on this would be based on two issues. One, the kind of system of government that is suitable for Nigeria, and the other is the cost of governance given Nigeria’s current economic status. These are two different questions. The first one is the system of governance which can be discussed rationally. This is actually what the people that have been elected into the various legislative assemblies should be engaged with. I believe that what we need to do is to set a debate in motion and to wait for the various contributions that will come out of it. Such outcome will depend entirely on how well organised the discussions of various issues and at the end of the day, through various reasons adduced we will know what Nigerians prefer.

Secondly, on the cost of governance, in Nigeria we talk a lot about corruption and ill governance. There should be transparency in governance. We have to find a better way of fighting corruption and ensuring that there is probity in governance. Corruption is not peculiar to any particular system of government; whether presidential or parliamentary, the issue remains the same. Irrespective of whichever system that we operate, we must ensure probity, transparency and rule of law. So, I think by now we should begin to look at issues before us. What are the problems we are facing and then begin to come out with creative solutions to those problems. And these creative solutions must also take into cognisance our cultures, histories, circumstances, and our environment.

•Prof. Bello

How would you advise the incoming government to tackle corruption?

Let me tell you, corruption in human society has always been a factor. Every human society based its development on two essential premises: Firstly, what are those things that are positive and developmental, and then those things which are harmful and destructive, and which need to really be contained. Those elements that are destructive are called corruption while the totality of the things which are not destructive are called development. That is why in each and every society there is a law to contain corruption and corrupt tendencies—whether by the rulers, the community or common criminals. That is one. The rule of law and the principles of constitutionalism must be followed in our country, Nigeria. We must also ensure there is clear separation of powers. Those are what make the Americans, the British, the Chinese and the Russians different from us to a great extent. They make sure that their own laws are respected in the conduct of their own affairs. That is why they are making progress. Look at the level of respect that the American legislative arm has for their law. Look at (President) Barak Obama and the way he respects the law. But here, look at the way our people promote impunity in order to grab or retain power. This is the difference. The law must be respected in line with the constitution and so on.

Secondly, the society itself must reward people who are constructive. Society must reward merit and reward sacrifice. The society must respect the positive contributions from each and every person within the community and at the same time, sanction bad behaviour. We should find ways to punish people who are corrupt at all levels, Federal, State and at the local level. And to also encourage and reward people who are constructive at all these levels. So, these are some of the most effective ways that you can promote the development of the society and really negate the consequences of corruption to the lowest possible minimum. These are my own views on this issue.

What is your view on the call for the incoming government to probe past administrations?

You see, anywhere in the world, the incoming administration like every other administrations must deal with some of the problems that it inherited. It must be able to deal with some of the problems it met on the ground; and as well create its own solutions to them. You do not create solutions to a problem in a vacuum by saying you have closed all that. If you have closed all that, what are you going to build on or not to build. You must inherit certain good things from the past and build on them, and those things that are not good, you must negate them and bring them to an end. There should be a room for and promotion of justice. Unless you build on just foundations, there is no way you can build a genuine society and genuine developmental process. Two, a lot of people are saying there is no money in Nigeria and at the same time complaining that there is a lot of corruption. A lot of people have illegally taken government money, while some have shipped the money abroad. Some have committed vast criminal activities here in Nigeria. So, I think up to a certain point you have to be able to say, yes, these criminal activities should not be tolerated. These people must be made to return the monies they have misappropriated so that Nigeria can use such money for its own development. With this, those who are now coming into office will see that there will always be consequences for the kind of things they would have done. So, anybody that tells the president-elect to just move forward and forget those who have looted the country blind is endorsing criminal activities. They are saying there should be no consequences for criminal activities. But there should be consequences for all forms of criminal activities. We must be able to determine at what extent and at what level we need to put an end to it. So, I think the President-elect has said that his administration will only extend its investigation to the beginning of the Fourth Republic which is 1999. That is okay. So, he is now trying to sanitise this whole thing. Anything beyond 1999 will not be his concern, but since 1999 when this democratic dispensation took off, he should look at various projects which have been mishandled. For instance, how will he proceed with privatisation if he is not able to look at what was done before in order to clarify issues and make sure that they are in order. The same thing with so many other programmes including how he will stabilise power supply and provide decent transportation. How would he deal with the issue of good governance and development if he doesn’t look at the investments earlier made in order to see which way to proceed. This is necessary. So, while we should not be interested in witch-hunting, we must also be concerned about due process and ensuring that things are done on the basis of clear investigation, understanding and procedures.

Some Schools of Thought have blamed capitalism as a major factor bedeviling Nigeria’s economic growth. What alternative theory due you think is suitable for Nigeria’s political cum economic growth?

If you look at the way the world is organised today and various economies at the level of nations or at the level of various companies, the question of whether this is capitalist or non-capitalist is not even the issue. These are terminologies. What you are interested in is an economy which has three essential qualities: one, it is creative. Creative in the sense that it has its institutions, research and development institutions formed by companies that will be able to generate technological inventions through research. That is one basic important economic index—you must be able to generate creative things with technology because without technology, you cannot be able to build industries, you cannot promote agriculture and so on, so, that is the first one. What makes America, Russia and China great is because they are creative in the scientific and technological world. These are part of their economies. It is not a question of they are either Socialists or they call themselves so, it is because they are able to generate this capacity. So, generating the capacity is the first challenge. Second, in addition to being creative is to be productive, and produce the kind of things that you need for your own consumption or for exchange with the outside world. Nigeria is more or less a mono-cultural economy, and we rely essentially on oil, which we don’t even mine or process as other people come and do that for us.

So, we need to be able to diversify the economy, to make it an industrial economy that will be able to manufacture woods, tractors and other equipment that will be useful in farming. As it is now, to import all these things is so costly and this has made the development of the country impossible. So, with creative and productive, the third that is needed to run an economy is social justice. With social justice, people should be able to gain employment on which basis they can earn decent wages, guarantee job security and earn their pensions. For people who are disabled and mentally ill, they should be assured of welfare and acquisition of skills. So, an economy like everything else in a human society must be based on justice. People get what they deserve. When we tax foreign and local companies, we can use part of the proceeds to take care of those who cannot take care of themselves. This is the way economies are developed in the modern world. If you go to Britain, they have social welfare schemes, and they have health schemes and so on. So, for our economy to develop, we must be able to pay special attention to these three: one, use your human resources to generate development—that is the creation I am talking about. Use your human resources in your universities, in your research institutions—what are they producing, what inventions are they making to help people that are into production. What do you have in your farms and your industries—how productive are they? And then, finally, in the context of this, how just is the manner of distribution of wealth. How do you take care of those who cannot take care of themselves? How do you take care of those who labour to make this economy possible? These are the three most important things which Nigeria must pay attention to. And If we are doing this, we must be able to contain corruption, we must be able to contain fraud, criminal activities and so on; and then the economy will continue to grow. People will be more constructive than destructive.

The last time we met at a seminar, you spoke passionately on the problems of the Fulani. You will agree with me that this conflict between Fulani herdsmen and farmers has continued unabated particularly in remote northern communities. How best do you think the problem can be solved?

In fact, this is a very important question because the first and very most important condition for any kind of development is the guarantee of peace; peaceful co-existence between the people. We have had instances of serious conflict between the people and the government, like we have in Odi in Bayelsa and Zaki Biam in Benue—these are very destructive experiences. In some places you have communal wars like that of the pastoralists and the rural farmers—these cannot guarantee development. Unless you create not only conditions that are peaceful, but also mutually beneficial so that herdsmen and farmers can benefit from each other’s activities. This was the purpose of that Conference and I am happy it drew the attention of the government here and there. But I believe the incoming government should pay greater attention to this issue of pastorals/farmers clash. The issue also extends to the government gross neglect in the welfare and well-being of the pastorals who produce about 90 per cent of livestock that we consume in Nigeria; but hardly do they get even five per cent attention from the government. Now, unless we have a government which says yes, these people are very important to Nigeria. We look at them, look at their problems and try to make them feel they are part of the society. It is the same thing with the fishing industry, they are neglected. It is the same thing with local food processers—the government is not looking their way. Go round Nigeria and see the way the local people are producing gari, yam flour, yams and so many other things, but hardly do you see any government concern or encouragement, either from within or from abroad to support the activities of these local food processors. We cannot be able to empower our people if the activities from which they earn a living are not supported and encouraged.

On the eve of the general elections, the National Response Initiative, NRI, of which you are the organiser held several campaigns for peaceful, credible and free polls. Are you satisfied the way the elections were conducted by INEC and also the conduct of Nigerians during the polls?

The National Response Initiative (NRI) is an independent, non-partisan, non-sectarian and non-profit making association of patriotic Nigerians that added its voice to the multiple calls for free, fair and credible elections which we believe are necessary precondition for peace, progress and development in the country. We campaigned for respect to Nigeria’s constitutional and legal provisions underlying and informing electoral activities. In particular it is necessary to ensure that the abuse of the powers of incumbency, at all levels, is contained. This is to ensure that Nigerians do elect, and also control, leaders of their own choices. To a large extent, the standard we advocated for was almost met by INEC and Nigerians. Though there were few lapses during the elections, it is a thing of joy to say that the 2015 general elections has stood out as the best Nigeria has ever witnessed in recent history. INEC deserves commendation, but more needs to be done. Nigerians deserve to be commended for the way they conducted themselves and we have shown the world that yes, we can constitute and institute a democracy really made by the people and for the people. We can use our voters’ card to elect the leaders we want with little influence from desperate politicians. On this note, I congratulate the President-elect as we hope that he will not disappoint Nigerians. I also congratulate President Goodluck Ebele Jonathan for creating a platform for which true democracy is instituted.