Babagana Kingibe

The Social Democratic canvass is in some kind of tatters, what are the lessons to gain from the experience of this third attempt at democracy. What are the vital lessons?

The basic lessons is for all Nigerians to make up their minds as to really what they want. And if they decide to do whatever they want to do, they should do so on the basis of mutual respect and with abundant disposition.

There has been so much debate on whether the Constitutional Conference will hold or not. Is it not quite ironic that someone like you, a social democrat, agreed to serve under a regime that is not keenly committed to a return to democracy?

A lot of people have preconceived ideas that unless you get your way than either the thing has failed or it must be wrecked. We are now approaching the Constitutional Conference. It will hold by the grace of God. And in that Constitutional Conference there would be people from all parts of the country and all segments of the society. I do hope by now many of us have learnt from the failures of the second republic and our recent attempt.

So much has been said about the unseriousness of the political class which led to the collapse of our last democratic experiment. But why have members of the Nigerian political class been so opportunistic and narrow minded all these years?

Every failure of a democratic attempt is a failure of the political class be it first, second or even third republic. It is easy to say it is the military that ruined it but it was because the political class was notable to have created conditions and atmosphere under which the military could strike or when the military strikes at any time they are not able to resist it. But the irony of It all is that the political class which everybody is pillorying is all we want. The political class is the only class that can engage in politics. So we better preserve it. We just have to live with the political class which includes me.

The government has spent six months in office, why has it not been able to put together a political programme?

All these doubts you people express about this government is a doubt imposed by either impatient politicians or the gullible press or mischievous elements because the head of state was very clear when he said there would be a return to democratic rule in the shortest possible time. That this process will include convening a Constitutional Conference and towards this end, a Constitutional Conference Commission has been empanelled. And everybody knows that they have submitted their interim report and everybody knows that the Minister of Information who does not invent statements made a statement that the Constitutional Conference will hold latest 27th of June. I do not know how the critics know it would not hold. So you jump from the position it would not hold to now looking for alternative ways of bringing about whatever you want to bring about instead of saying you said it would hold, we would hold you on it, we could work towards it and we would hold it. I am inside. I am a member of the PRC, I am a Minister in this government. I come from a polticial background. I am a non partisan person for now but I am a politician all the same and therefore I have great regard for my reputation, there would be a Constitutional Conference. It will hold. Insha Allah.

Babangida was used to saying Insha Allah almost every time he made promises and he broke them at will. Why should Nigerians take you seriously when you say Insha Allah?

I know. But mine is different. I also would like to believe that I am a man of faith. I don’t say Insha Allah in vain. I will be the last person to be sitting where I am if I believe that there would be no Constitutional Conference.

But what explains the conflicting statements by government officials over the date?

People have to make up their minds while there is some virtue in government having made a decision to stick with it, it shouldn’t do so to a point that when objective circumstances and new information and your efforts to implement what you said you will do, throw up impediments of a kind that makes it imperative to review, no responsible government should hesitate to review its position. The day that I will be worried and the day that anybody should be worried is when government says there would be no Constitutional Conference.

But David Mark took on your regime on this issue and cast doubts in the seriousness of the Abacha regime to hand over soon?

David Mark you said? Are you talking about what was attributed to Newswatch to David Mark.

Are you doubting the Newswatch interview?

No. no. no. it is a statement of fact. Newswatch attributed an interview to David Mark

Can we say the same of the interview we are having with you now?

It is on tape. You can play it back to anybody. Yes. That is what I mean to that extent what you have in the tape are my views, not that you are ascribing them to me.

We just thought we should also raise the issues he talked about because government is going to launch a War Against Corruption. Are there major surprises that government is building into this campaign?

I though the major surprise is that for once in the life of this country, a government that has been attacked all round the press by its opponents of all persuasions internal and external as being corrupt and incapable of waging war against corruption is now launching a programme, a crusade against corruption, that should be the major surprise and I hope it is a pleasant one.

There are those who feel government’s handling of the David Mark’s interview was not neat

That is not true. Government issued a statement and addressed the issues.

But government did not respond adequately to all the issues raised

Unlike David Mark, government has responsibility to the nation to maintaining institutional integrity. So government cannot come out and engage everybody who is aggrieved and who makes wild allegations. I thought that anybody who reads that interview will see within it the source of that inspiration and the statements by their very contradictions. What surprises me is the way the press has left that interview to portray it as the defender of democracy and as a crusader for rectitude. For example take one issue, do you feel that government should probe the activities of ministries and public functionaries? I think the general public view is that one of the ways of fighting corruption is to do that. Government has set up a number of panels to do just that. But Mark in an interview said probes are a waste of time. An he is praised for it. That is an example. I gathered from the interview that he wasn’t opposed to a military take over of the government, it is the detail of how to take over and what to do when you take over. That is super high point of sophistry. And the whole interview was riddled with that kind of sophistry. And intelligent and unprejudiced mind would have sat back and reflected. After all David Mark is not an anonymous soldier. He has been in public life for a long, long time. He had played a little administrative role in his first emergence into public life as chairman of the Abandoned Property Task Force in Rivers state.

From then on, anybody who cared to would have followed David Mark’s career. Common we know what he did, it is only in Nigeria that when yesterday goes, it goes with all to lessons and with all its history and truth and you somehow reinvest yesterday of your own imagination.

Why has Nigeria’s claim in Bakassi raised so much doubts?

Doubts in whose mind?

Why should any territory of Nigeria even be in contention?

With whom?

Either with our neighbor or anybody?

Cameroon has an ambition to claim Bakassi

If it is a Nigerian territory why should they do that?

Well they have come up with all sorts of arguments about some treaties between Germans and British in 1913 almost the Maroua declaration, about this and that. All of which have no standing in law. The matter right now is in the International court of justice which will pronounce eventually on the integrity of either side’s claim.

I think Nigeria’s primary interest should be one, that Bakasssi we know is ours, government has said so. And so our duty is to defend that territory and to vigorously proclaim our sovereignty.

How do you explain Gowon’s role in all these?

There should be no doubts about that. Gowon ceded the place. Maroua Declarations was negotiated and signed between Ahidjo and Gowon. It was a proposal of a treaty which according to our laws will come into effect as soon as the treaty is ratified by the legislative arm of government. A head of state doesn’t bring to force a treaty. The Supreme Military Council was the legislative body according to the unsuspended portion of the Constitution. They didn’t ratify it, they refused. Murtala Muhammed upon coming to power immediately repudiated it. Obasanjo did the same thing. So that is a dead treaty. All these superficial arguments which Cameroun has been dangling do not help. What they don’t recognize is that International law has developed beyond colonial treaties. We know other aspects like the law of the sea which has come and dramatically altered the nature and understanding is boundaries.

Babagana Kingibe

Why have previous governments not been assertive over our claim on Bakassi

Circumstances of the time matters judgment of the leadership of the time of the government of the time. Every government takes responsibility for its actions. We cannot allow our territory to be annexed since we have no design or anybody elses’s territory, to be grabbed by others. If there is a dispute, let us discuss it in accordance with the provision of the UN and that of OAU which says disputes are to be resolved through dialogue, arbitration and adjudication.

How do you explain the late justice Elias letter on Bakassi. That we have no claim to Bakassi?

The whole of that letter was written on the basis of an understanding of the 1913 agreement which was just a document on paper with no research ever done into his papers because the occasion never arose. Everybody was acting on good faith. Since then a lot of research has been done and I will like to believe that even if Justice Elias were alive today he couldn’t hold the same opinion in the light of recent events.

Have similar boundary problems being tackled by this government?

As far as I know we have no boundary dispute with Niger or Chad. But it is unfortunate that Cameroun from time to time decide to lay claim on fortunes of Nigeria like Bakassi. Only last week they now claim Drak in Borno state as being Cameroun. I don’t know what they will claim next, maybe the Mambila Plateau. I don’t know why Cameroun delights in looking for Liebelsraum, it is a German word meaning living space which is what propelled Hitler to go on taking on land here and there.

Are our borders fully demarcated?

No. that is part of the problems. What we should be doing is getting down to doing demarcation exercises.

The biggest issue now is the South African election. Is Nigeria not a bit nervous that South African independnce will erode our traditional allies and leadership profile in Africa.

No, On the contrary, we are happy for the prospects of a democratic and prosperous non racial South Africa. Whereby the majority rule based on universal trust will strengthen Nigeria’s position. It will create another island of prosperity and capacity to contribute towards the general alleviation of proverty and backwardness that afflicts most of African countries.

Does it not worry you that South Africa is achieving what the giant of Africa could not achieve on 12 June?

It is not worrying. We achieved what they are achieving now in 1960, as it is not a question of South Africa beating Nigeria to it. Was our independence not achieved on the basis of democratic elections.

Currently, what steps is your ministry taking to respond effectively to the changes in that part of Africa.

We have only two aspects which are not quite normal in our relationship. We do not have formal diplomatic relations with South Africa, we only have interests office in South Africa and we have not lifted the oil embargo. All those two will go on the completion of the democratic election. We will have a diplomatic presence in South Africa and as already decided to the United Nations the oil embargo will go.

Do you think there would be major shift in the content of our relationship following this election?

Oh yes. There would be major shifts in our relationship with South Africa. There will be intense efforts and I hope fruitful ones at cooperation at all levels, government to government, institution to institution, people to people across racial bias.

Nigeria has not enjoyed a very healthy relationship with United States of America for sometime. First, there were sanctions slammed on us on account of its annulment of election and of course recently Nigeria was desertified over the drug issue. What is Nigerian government doing to clean up all these mess and overcome these hiccups?

I am glad you called a hiccups. As all other hiccups they will pass. This one indeed will also pass. It is normal in the relationship between two states, there is nothing abnormal about it. At the bottom of the hiccups is the perception by the American administration that it is about time Nigeria moves towards democracy. And of course one thing flows from the other. Let us not make any mistake about it, the decertification of Nigeria is an indictment of the government from Janaury 1993 to December 1993. Really it was as a result of the failure of the Babangida regime to stem the high incidence of Nigeria’s involvement in the drug trade, made worse by the ING’s handling of the issue.

The whole report leading to the decertification of Nigeria or non certification of Nigeria is in terms of today’s reality unfounded and unjustified. We have made more efforts since 17 November to date that has ever been made in the country to combat drugs. They have so acknowledged that their embassy have had said so. The state department has said so and has advised Nigeria should not be banned.

Aside from its failure in battling drugs, how do you assess eight years of Babangida in a wholistic sense now. Whom did the eight years of Babangida take us to?

It took us to where we are today. If you are happy with where we are today then it is a reflection of the regime. If you are not it is also a reflection of the regime.

You had a shot at the presidency of this country, you were an inch becoming the president of this country, you also succeeded in nearly becoming the vice president if not for the annulement. Now that you are in government as a stop gap, what is next? Where do you go from here?

I don’t know because there is a sense of immediacy about that. In general terms I believe I have had the relevant experience and exposure just like several other experienced politicians who are entitled to be in government like me and serve the country. But I will not hesitate to make my contribution like I am doing now to better the lives of our fellow citizens in improving our country. But as you know this decision to offer ourselves for service or in answering to the call of your people is basically a function of the opportunity and circumstance available. I cannot tell you yes I will contest again when I leave here or no I would not. As of now, I am trying my best as I can to people with the foreign policy issues affecting this country. I do not do this with an eye to the future. I do this with deep concentration on today’s reality.

As a member of the Provisional Ruling Council and the council of ministers, you are perhaps in the best position to do a close up of General Abacha. Whats working with Abacha like?

You cannot appreciate General Sani Abacha unless you come close. I have enjoyed immensely working with him. He is a man of great competence, knowledge and experience.

Really?

Yes, he has to be for him to be where he is. I remember at the beginning some people gave us three months, a friend of mine even asked me to put it into my diary that by the end of March that General Abacha would be gone and that the country will collapse in two months. But today he is still there. He is in charge. He is in control of the country. There are testimonies to his skills, he has his own ideas which he holds firmly but he is flexible to surrender these ideas to superior arguments. He is a sincere person. He is a committed person Abacha is quite aware of his historical role and that point is sharpened by his military training. He is a hardworking person. What even worries me even on his own behalf is the enormous hours he puts into the day, he works all the time all night all day. Somehow he makes those of us who work with him to look so inadequate and feel guilty. If ever we felt tired. He doesn’t feel tired. I like him to Henry the 5th in Shakespeare. If you don’t know about Henry the 5th go and read about him.

• This interview was first published in TheNEWS hard copy, 2 May 1994 edition