President Muhammadu Buhar

Have you been able to identify who the fifth columnist is or was?

Of course, I know it was the military intelligence who searched all those houses. It was the military intelligence that ordered Shehu Musa’s house searched. It was not the police, it was not the NSO. Those behind it are visible today.

Don’t you think it was a tactical error on the part of your administration to have fought many battles, in many fronts taking on organised groups like doctors, university teachers, students, lawyers.?

It was not necessary, it was not confrontational. The elite forces were doing a lot of havoc when we decided to expose them as being corrupt and incompetent. So they went through all sorts of ways to cause diversion. I’ll give you an example about the Nigeria Medical Association. Somebody in the Ministry of Health made the mistake of refusing to give some of the staff I their rights as their terms of condition of service stipulated. The matter was brought to the Federal Executive Council and the Council said those people WI ~re right. They should be given free medical attention .and then the person who made that wrong should be punished. Whether he was punished or not I didn’t know, because it had become a civil service affair. But immediately after, the NMA said it gave us 72 hours to equip hospitals, to bring drugs and a lot more conditionalities, For goodness sake how can an educated elite like that give a government 72 hours. How much time does it take you to equip a hospital, not even a whole country. And they knew the condition in which the economy of the country was in then. Nobody knew how much this country was owing. A lot of people had an idea of who stole the money and who were party to it. So we were not fighting on all fronts but those who we were fighting were people of substance like former governors, ministers, former commissioners, deputy governors. They felt they were above the law. Contracts were swollen from Nlmillion to N3 million, some of the jobs were not done, they were paid for. And now the contractors who collected the money and their relatives were not creating diversions. We were only fighting corrupt institutions.

In any case after 20 months they succeeded, some of them were fined, they were given their money, property. That is why we are where we are now. Everybody who gets to position in this country feels he is entitled to steal, because nobody can question him. ?

But we are talking of groups such as the NMA, students. Is it that they were opposing you so much that you decided to crack down ‘on them?

We had to do that to survive as a government and we had to punish people who looted the treasury. Have they all not been set free now by this government. Where are they now.?

But was the situation so bad that you had to use unconventional methods?

The situation was that bad. Okay tell me, how can you bring these men to trial using the normal Nigerian litigation method. Go and check on one land problem in Lagos, it takes a generation, 30 years to resolve. Are we going to wait for 30 years with this kind of administration? Is this how to run a government? It is now eight years and we are all in trouble. Maybe you don’t know we are all in trouble.

Your economic doctrine revolved around opposition to the International Monetary Fund loan and there was the counter trade. What were their palpable gains since the present regime abandoned these policies?

When we came in, this country had no credit line with any country because we would not settle our trade arrears. Trade arrears had become five billion dollars. Nobody was giving us any further loan, no spare parts, no new machinery, no material for industry, factories were lying fallow. And the countries would not give us that line of credit until we take IMF loan and their conditionalities and no matter how limited you think that administration was we knew there was no developing country that can develop that way and Nigeria was-no exception. We knew Nigeria could not survive under the IMP loan, so we refused it. Moreso we knew we were not a poor country. The Federal Executive Council then said, look, even rich countries are doing counter trade. Why not us. This is what we did. There was a committee I set up to examine what we require, then they looked at the commodity prices and we were settling our debts. We were servicing it regularly and our balance of payment improved within the 20 months.

You had this economic blue print which was not very clear until you left. What were the high points?

It was clear. It depends on what you are not clear about. You can’t say the policy was totally unclear. We found ourselves in a quandary. We had factories, but no spare parts, no raw materials, which means we cannot get the good and services we need as a nation. So where do we fall on? But we have oil, we have cocoa, we had things we can exchange to get those unemployed employed. Does this not make -economic sense? Instead of taking somebody’s money and he comes and sits in your Central Bank and makes nonsense of your independence as a nation by telling you to buy from his own country, maybe his goods are not as good as those in the world market where you normally buy them. We had a clear perception of what to do and we were on our way doing it, that is why we were impatient with local problem, because really we saw where we were going. There was no way we could go about it without discipline. We ‘had to rut waste. You don’t take public fund and give it to people to do nothing. People have to earn a living. And it is much more respectful to give them a way of earning a living rather than donating money to them.

What did your regime commit so high a percentage to servicing debt as highlighted by those who removed you from office?

How much are you spending now? Answer me. Is it lower? (laughter) I often laugh when people say we are rigid, I tell them it is not true. There is no way you can run any government as complex like Nigeria’s without being flexible and also compromising here and there but there are standards we refuse to go below. We said we shall not allow anybody to misuse public funds, no way. There is no way you can run any government as complex like Nigeria’s without being flexible and also compromising here and there but there are standards we refuse to go below

When you came in, your government wanted to cross check trade arrears said to be about 5 billion dollars. What were your findings? VI ere you able to identify the percentage debt Nigeria was supposed to repay?

We had not finished before we were removed. What we did was to put one of the reputable banks to do authentification. If you said you were a company out there and you brought a product to Nigeria, we made sure you proved to us what you brought, which trading company it went through before we agreed to pay you. You just don’t get papers stamped by Customs and Excise or Central Bank and say you are owing.

You pursued the LNG project vigorously before you left. How much was realised in respect of this project.

One of the most unfortunate things that has happened to Nigeria was the lack of take off of the LNG project. It was one of the most unfortunate things to happen to this country. You could recall that towards the end of Obasanjo’s regime, I had initiated the agreement. It needed only to be formalised then itwas scuttled. Because by December 1983, we would have even started sending LNG out and the benefits and linkages were so diversed that it would have solved most of our petrochemical foreign exchange problems. Because I was involved in the project as commissioner of petroleum, when I came back into government I wanted to find out how far we had gone. I found out it was stagnant, and the serious participants withdrew because they could not accept the terms the Second Republic government gave them.

So we had to start all over again. When we looked we had no money. We had to dedicate a certain of portion of our in-come to be kept in an account for LNG .That was the amount General Obasanjo was talking about. You better go and find out from this administration where that money is?

Members of the organised private sector criticized you then for refusing to hand over public utilities under the privatisation policy. Why did you oppose privatisation?

Have they done it now? If they have, what is the outcome? The whole thing is fraudulent I’ll give you an example. Take Nigerian Airport Authority.

We opted for commercialisation because it made a lot of sense. You give it to competent managers to manage and you put some capital into it. See what is happening today. You take away the banks, you take away the oil industries, you give them to people to make money. But other services like the Railway, the public transport, the air transport, education all suffer.

We opted for commercialisation because it made a lot of sense. You give it to competent managers to manage and you put some capital into it. See what is happening today. You take away the banks, you take away the oil industries, you give them to people to make money. But other services like the Railway, the public transport, the air transport, education all suffer.

From your answers, you sound like someone misunderstood. Is-that a fair reading of how Nigerians responded to your regime?

You caused it. Nigerians had to depend on you, (the press) to understand this. You misrepresented me to Nigerians on behalf of the few within.

All sorts of stories making the rounds suggest that you were not part of the group that removed Shagari. Is this true?

Just now, one of your colleagues asked me: Was the Otta Forum an effort to save the military from disgrace? I think it was the same thing under Shagari, but not particularly for the military but it was for the whole national institution. The call for good government and people saying the military must net come back; there should be no coup, are all nonsense. You remember the Constituent Assembly and the COC examined the issue of No More Coup but found it was all nonsense. Whichever leadership that refuses to give an account of its stewardship properly to the nation will go one way or the other. In terms of Second Republic we reached a stage where they had no credibility in the country, and no credibility’ outside the country. Now we have reached the same stage again. This present government has no credibility inside or outside the country. So whatever government it is, be it military or civilian, if it doesn’t perform something has to give. Whether I participated in the overthrow of Shagari or not is not my business, let them put it in the way they like. I wouldn’t like to talk about this issue now but the important thing is that we saw that this country was about to collapse and we were in a position to stop it and thank goodness we had 20 months and people have seen the efforts we had made. What about those who have spent eight years? What positive contributions have they .made?

But people still feel the coup was NPN inspired. You remember that Chief Akinloye said there were only two parties in the country: NPN and the Army. Why did you dance to the NPN tune?

Well they were saying that. They said that. I was concerned about that. You know I travelled from Jos to Lagos to complain about this statement by Akinloye and somebody reminded me that President Shagari himself made it. So I went back to Jos in annoyance. You see the arrogance of the political class. I think then and now, that because people elected them, no matter how they were elected, so nobody has the right to either criticisethem or to question their Integrity. I think that statement ?should not come from a leader. If a president of the United States, that country we are copying, can be carpeted for Iran-contra affair, money taken through many ways, just .because of their belief in anti-communist activities in another country, what stops us from dealing with a Nigerian leader who steals public funds. This is our problem and this has to stop. What you find in Nigeria is you have a leader who more than half of the people are tired of but he says no person can question him about taking public funds and throwing it about the place as it is happening now. Nigerians must refuse to accept a hostage leadership.

What do you mean by hostage leadership?

It is when you have a leader that is a hostage to other interests than the Nigerian interests. Can’t you see what is happening today?

The people’s belief is that you had personal problem with President Shehu Shagari over the Chadian incursion in 1983 when as GOC at Jos you commanded the troops that sent them back against the decision of Shagari. What happened?

This is the problem. Issues in Nigeria are always conspired. What is the role of the Nigerian Army? Is one of the vital roles not to guard the border? For example, Hissene Habre was in Lagos on a Friday before the attack having dinner with Shagari. And Professor Ishaya Audu, external affairs minister was in East Africa, about the same time lobbying African countries to accept Habre in the OAU. But by the following Sunday, two days after, Habre’s forces attacked our troops within Nigeria and killed five of our soldiers, looted our military hardwares and so on and arrested about 20 soldiers. How can you really, if you have a system of command as we had, allow this kind of nonsense to happen. We didn’t like it and we told the authority we didn’t like it. We had started operation and we were told to withdraw and we did. But I think we were failing in our fundamental duties under the constitution. We allow people to come into Nigeria, harass our own people, kill them and just allow your people to be killed. We felt very bad. The military felt very bad. We taught Habre’s forces some hard les-sons.

But there was this story that you defied orders from Lagos.

How can I refuse to take orders from Lagos? When I was told to withdraw I left the place.

But the story was that you moved in even before discussing with Shagari.

(Laughter) If you have been a soldier, if you have been an officer for 15, 16, 17 years commanding troops you will use your initiative from time to time.

What initiative did you use at that time?

I gave Habre a bloody nose. I gave the fool a bloody nose. I taught him a lesson, a very hard one.

During your administration, there was the bungling of the kidnapping of Umaru Dikko. A lot of people felt you were behind it and that you ordered his abduction.

What do you mean by that? You mean me Buhari as a person or my administration?

Your regime.

Okay. But do you recall the statement we gave then? I still stand by it.

What does that mean?

I stood by it.

Is it true that you used Danjuma as a military consultant?

Look it is one of the unfortunate things that is happening in this country. I saw a paid advertisement in one of the magazines by a junior officer Major Mustapha Jokolo who must have been paid or given something to discredit some officers. To that extent whatever he says cannot be credible. As far as credibility is concerned there are two officers that I know that I can vouch for anywhere because I served under them. One of them is General Danjuma, the other is General Obasanjo. I think” Nigeria is lucky to have people like that. How can you have a country that is this sick?

How can you allow a Major speak openly against a General that commanded the army or commanded the country? Because what carne out of the write up by this officer, that was I laid was far beyond what that officer will ever know, although he was my ADC. Definitely somebody, ‘loved into the military’s security archives and turned it over to a junior officer to abuse a senior officer. But I know Nigerians know the value of those officers, Obasanjo and Danjuma.

How can you allow a Major speak openly against a General that commanded the army or commanded the country?

Why was there a need to abduct Umaru Dikko?

We were trying to stop corruption, to investigate people who had misused Nigerian re-sources and let them pay this money back because they were taken illegally. There are Nigerians who felt concerned and if you could recall unlike the interview granted by Umaru Dikko, nobody wanted Umaru Dikko dead. We all wanted Umaru Dikko here, we wanted him alive because he accused that administration of corruption or some of the officers. Let him come and say it. If they wanted to kill him as he said, they could have killed him there. But if you kill a person- you bury the evidence. The thing to do is to allow him to live and you allow him to talk.

Your government had an elaborate economic policy, how come you never had a transition programme like the one the regime that overthrew you used to legitimise itself in office?

But are they serious about it? Are they honest about it? We know what is going on. We had a political programme but because I didn’t mention it does not mean it does not exist or that it is not a credit to the administration. By June 1984, I took a paper to the Supreme Military Council on this. And this paper caused a lot of heat. So I had to withdraw the memo and I had to submit another one. But nobody ever mentioned in this administration that there was an attempt to bring in -civilians more in a larger number in both the state and federal assembly. But it was rejected. But because it would give our administration a lot of credit nobody said it.

Still on the Umaru Dikko abduction, if your-government supported the move, why was it bungled the way it was bungled?

You better go’ and ask those who bought advertisement and accused some Generals of being corrupt. Because they seem to have all the information. I told you I can vouch for the integrity of only two Generals because I served under them. I don’t know of some others who served with me but are now visible today. Those who say they directed their integrity honestly in all they did while I was head of state let them show it to the public. It is not good enough for me to accuse some specific Generals without giving the evidence. They are in power today.

So why did the operation fail?

How do I know?

Can the failure be attributed to the activities of the fifth columnist in your regime.

Probably. Get your stories down and let them have a judicial enquiry after this administration has gone so that ordinary people like us can be asked what we know about it. We know who did all these things.

Let us talk about General Idiagbon.

Why?

He was your number two man and a lot of people saw him as your alter ego.

Well, there are things you should put down as a mark of people’s greatness or weakness. General Idiagbon was leading a Hajj team including senior officers like the late Mamman Vatsa and General Duba and so on and this coup took place during Hajj and General Tunde Idiagbon was given the option to stay till this regime decided to hand over but he said no. He said he would come back and join me so that I will not be killed. He said since we being accused together he would come and face trial with me. Tell me. He would have been the first person to disassociate himself from me as some serving Generals now did. Can you imagine. We all served together in the Supreme Military Coundl for 20 months, took decision together, we came out with all the laws, and they turned round, when it suited them to say Tunde and I arrogated to ourselves the knowledge of governance. After eight years, Nigerians know better. Some of us came out of the regime feeling patriotic, courageous, with our personal and professional integrity intact. Let us see how many of those in government today can say that about themselves.

Why did you pick Idiagbon as your deputy?

It was not very easy, but by some fabulous coincidence he happened to have gone through all the commands I went through. I was a military secretary. He was a military secretary too. He commanded the brigade I established in Makurdi. He became administrator of Borno State, where I became a governor and so we know each other very well. He is a performer. He is an achiever.

But he took his underaged child to Hajj at a time they said kid is should not be taken.

Well I suppose if this is the only thing you have against him, then go to him. Only Tunde Idiagbon can give you a good answer to that.

Let’s talk of the attitude of your government to hard drugs. Why has there been so much controversy about theway you dealt with drug couriers and dealers at that time?

Then we thought we could stem the tide of Nigerians getting involved in it by the way we went about it but see what is happening today. So what drug trafficking has brought Nigeria. Look at what happened to Clement Akpamgbo. Look at what happened to Wole Soyinka. Those are the consequences of being soft on crimes that destroy society. It is a pity that this government allows those who deal in drugs to destroy the society for money. Look at what is happening to Nigerians. Now, there are Nigerians when asked their nationality they say no they are Senegalese and Ghanaians. They are no longer proud to be called Nigerians. There are people I know who have stopped going out except when absolutely necessary because they are stripped to their pants. A dog is brought to sniff you.

There was this claim that you had gazetted the retirement of the late AIG Salihu Daura and a serving general now because of their involvement in drugs. You were also said to have detained one of the Dantatas, but these issues are shrouded in mystery.

There is nothing shrouded about it. The problem is: there were several cases investigated by the former Supreme Military Council at that time of some people involved in drugs. I suppose one of the people mentioned was being investigated. There was never a gazette retiring the AIG or the General who is now the President, because for a certain class of officers to be retired the issue has to come before the army council, and national security council. Those cases were never there. Meanwhile, because of the activities of the fifth columnist, rumours were deliberately peddled that senior officers were to be retired. If subsequent investigation proved that they dealt in cocaine they would have been treated by the law then.

Are you saying certain members of your regime were or were not involved in drugs?

Well, the investigation was on but the AIG mentioned was put under house arrest. I was eventually removed from government so I don’t know what happened after that, but if any of the drug suspects mentioned anybody in government, he would have gone. There was no doubt about it.

Rumours have it that Gloria Okon who was s aid to have died during your regime didn’t die afterall. Is it true that she is still alive?

Yes, I could recall the story. This letter came that day during a meeting and there was this argument over whether the Inspector General should attend or not. I said he should be at that meeting. The girl was said to have been killed in Kano: When I was in detention, I read a press report that she was never killed, that they just got another dead body so I wouldn’t know.

What was the nature, of the report that came to the SMC? Was it that the AIG and the General was into drugs?

It never came to the SMC. If it didn’t reach me there was no way the SMC could know. I could know the initial reports which were not confirmed. It wouldn’t be right to just mention initial investigation. But a lot of disinformation was passed around.

It was rumoured that the family members of one or two SMC members were involved in drug pushing.

After I left government I wouldn’t know. All I know is that nobody in my administration got involved in drug or broke any serious law that we know that was left alone to go scot free. It is just not possible. If anybody exists that you know during our regime that dealt in drugs let him bring the facts.
All I know is that nobody in my administration got involved in drug or broke any serious law that we know that was left alone to go scot free. It is just not possible

But the story was that you were just about to take an action when you were removed.

(laughter) Well, well gentlemen.

In fact some others say the reason for your removal is that you were about to take some fundamental action on some serving officers.

Why not, if there is the need. Why not, if the investigation comes to me. But it had not come to me. Well there may have been some investigation which didn’t come to me. It hasn’t come to me maybe it was at the gazetting stage. If it had come to me certainly I would have taken action.

Is it true that the closure of Black Gold in Kaduna by your government was as a result of this drug issue?

From what I knew it has got nothing to do with it. But I know there was an investigation by security agencies that a civilian outfit is growing out of a military environment and it has to be moved. That was why the facilities required for by Black Gold I was not approved by our government. No matter what a person feels, his relationship with member of government cannot impose his organisation into governmental institution just because he feels he is well known or something. This is government, it is all about public interest, and country’s interest not individual.

It is now eight years since you left government why were you removed?

(Laughter) I have certain principles below which I don’t operate. Some people see me as too tough to deal with. Those who are close enough to me know I am a very soft person. All I need is to understand you, but having understood you and I make up my mind, if it is a matter of principle, I don’t compromise. Look there was no point removing civilians, going over the air saying they were thieves, they give contracts or containers to their wives., contracts of a million were turned into N3 billion, or N35 million and then you come and do the same thing just because you are carrying a gun. That is armed robbery. If you do that you are an armed robber. You have stolen public property, because you are carrying a gun. Like with my colleagues, I thought they had shared all this philosophy with me including the fifth columnist and until they removed me, I was not entirely convinced that they had not. I was removed because certain members of my cabinet felt because they were in public office they were entitled to things other than what is specified in their terms and conditions of service. They know, me that I don’t compromise my personal or professional integrity. I tell them that at meetings. If they think I have done other things let them bring the facts now, I am free I can talk and they can talk. I think we are both in a position to do it.