[caption id="attachment_74808" align="alignright" width="640"] Ahmed Makarfi[/caption] The Peoples Democratic Party (PDP) has gone through a lot of conflicts which were recently resolved by the Supreme Court. What were the factors responsible for the sorry state of the party? These were the kernels of the questions fielded by Ahmed Makarfi, PDP chairman in an interview with Ayorinde Oluokun amd Desmond Utomwen Q: How would you describe the situation of PDP before this Supreme Court judgment which some have described as a lifeline for the party? Our experiences are in the public domain because political activities are not something you do in your sitting room or bedroom as the case may be. It has been widely covered. It is not a pleasant experience, but in a way, it’s like good tidings because it actually gave us an opportunity to reassess ourselves; to know those who genuinely are PDP members and those who maybe, one leg here, one leg there. Two, it also makes us more convinced of the need to re-jig , remodel, revamp the PDP and that was why we set up the Jerry Gana Committee which submitted its report long before the judgment of the Court of Appeal. So, overall, it made PDP members to become far more committed to the party. We are not in government, so there is no government patronage of whatever sort, so whatever efforts you have seen and will continue to see are efforts from ordinary party men and women who feel highly committed to the party. [caption id="attachment_74809" align="alignright" width="480"] TheNEWS cover interview with Makarfi on sale[/caption] What would you say are the mistakes that led PDP to this problem that you think the party must avoid in the future? Any political party must be open to new entrants into the party. But before you take a responsibility of leadership- and it is not just political parties- even governors, leaders at whatever level, private sectors, NGOS- before you take the responsibility of leadership and give it to someone, you have to do a background check. You must know the character of the individual, the capacity, how humble he is, all the good characters you need in a leader. I think that was the mistake that was made in the PDP. It is not that serious objections were not raised. For me, when that decision was to be taken, I walked out of the National Executive Committee meeting because I knew we were going into a disaster. But those who made the mistake owned up to the mistake and apologized to the party that honestly, they acted in good faith, but they didn’t know it would boomerang. We knew they acted in good faith, the apology was accepted, but then, we are all part of the larger political party. And it is not just in PDP. In any political party, even when it comes to national elections, Nigerians should sit back, think twice before they go in and elect, nominate or whatever process they want to embark on to choose a leader. To what extent would you say the crisis had dragged the party back because some people have said that’s why it has not been able to play the role of formidable opposition to the ruling APC? That may be so when you talk of PDP. But you know the most harmful opposition is opposition within and the APC is not yet a party. They started with serious opposition within themselves and they continue with serious opposition within themselves. Two, we also thank the Nigerian public because Nigerians are more politically alive, they don’t wait for a formal political party before they air their views on political affairs or anything as the case may be and they have not shied away from opposing any policy whether of the central government or state governments that they found deplorable. We are all in opposition. But opposition doesn’t mean that because you are not in power, you criticize everything. You do meaningful criticism and Nigerians have been doing that. We also in a limited way because of the division in our party have been doing that. As a matter of fact, the other side that we had conflict within PDP never at any time come out to criticize what the APC government was doing. There was not a time. Every criticisms of the action of the APC government always come from our side because we are the real opposition. So, are you going to do more of that now? Yes, especially now that we are getting to the period of pending elections. So, you will see all kinds of opposition would come not just from the political party itself, but even from people aspiring for political offices. So, it is a cumulative of all those opposition that you will see to whatever is not right. There are still seem to be wrangling as regards the authentic leadership of the PDP in some states, especially in the South west despite the Supreme Court victory. Some of the people who were aligned with the sacked Modu Sheriff faction seemed determined to hold on which those loyal to you want to take over. Some of the exco members said they are taking their members to join one Mega Party of Nigeria. How are you going to solve this problem? When the judgment was delivered, I said no victor, no vanquished, I stand on that. But again, we say no more to indiscipline. So, what the National Executive Committee of PDP did was to draw a line. Anything that happened before the Supreme Court judgment, draw a line. But the kind of party indiscipline that a lot of people exhibited- court today, court tomorrow, inflammatory statement in the media, calling ourselves this and that and anti –party activities, we said no more. So, we had to set up a standing disciplinary committee that henceforth, any party man or woman that errs will face the committee. At the same time, we set up the reconciliation committee to reconcile with all those that are willing and genuinely wanted reconciliation. And there was a decision that any illegal, parallel structure set up by Sheriff before he left is null and void. Those validly elected must return to office and we referred to the structures set up after the Court of Appeal judgment as the illegal ones. He was the one who did not show magnanimity when the Court of Appeal announced him as the Chairman because he went around to dissolve state chapters. Any chapter that did not support him, he dissolves them and set up caretaker committees. That was why we lost all local government elections in Benue, in Jigawa where he, as a matter of fact, connived with the APC State government and jailed our people. We didn’t do that and that is why we didn’t field another person to run in the Osun West Senatorial District election. We didn’t. We said PDP is PDP, if any faction submitted a name to INEC, it didn’t matter to us at the end of the day, and we want to go into the election as a single PDP family. But if you look back- he did parallel in Edo, he did in Ondo, so who has shown magnanimity, compassion, inclusivity? So, we are dealing with people who talked from both sides of their mouth. There has been nothing we have done in the past or now that indicate that we don’t mean well. And a number of key elements on his side have been with us either in the office or in my residence and we know that in the states, we have to reconcile them, harmonise them, but they have to be willing to be part of the process. [caption id="attachment_74810" align="alignright" width="640"] Ahmed Makarfi, centre, Ayorinde Oluokun, right and Desmond Utomwen[/caption] Some of your governors, especially Governors Wike and Fayose of Rivers and Ekiti State respectively seem not to be on the same page with the party leadership. They think Sheriff and members of his faction are like devils that must be shown the way out of the party, unlike this reconciliation the National Caretaker Committee is preaching…Particularly, I have not heard Wike said something like that; maybe he may have spoken about one or two individuals But he said something like that during the thanksgiving over the Supreme Court judgment... He may have said so, but they are governors. I am the National Party Chairman and the party is supreme and it is what we say as a party that people should actually listen to. No governor would go to a particular state and discipline any party man or woman. It is the party that can do that. What if you come under strong pressure from the governors that people like Sheriff and his supporters should not be allowed to continue to exist within the party… You see, nobody has sent anybody out. But once beaten, twice shy. Before you give somebody that has betrayed you a responsibility, it will take time and it is at different levels. There are those that followed them because of purely local political differences- it didn’t matter to them whether that National Chairman is Sheriff or even I. Their own difference is at the ward, local governments or even state level. We do understand that. So, we cannot punish them just because they have local problems and they have to align one way or the other because that’s politics. And that is why we said we draw a line – any view that any had had, any position that anybody had taken, anything that anybody had done before the Supreme Court pronounced the judgment, let it go. But the kind of indiscipline that helped in bringing PDP down must never be allowed to come forth again. And people must be able to understand this. If we are a serious party, that is part of the cleansing mechanism, you must behave will within the rules of the party. That’s why I said the governors can take decisions in their states, but the party is supreme, it will take decisions on issues affecting the party. Some have argued that the major cause of PDP problem was impunity, lack of internal democracy and at a time the party became arrogant thinking it cannot be kicked out of power. Do you agree that these are the problems and how do you think the party can overcome them? That’s what I mean when I said at the beginning that we have understood where we erred, we must revamp, reorganize the party, enhance internal democracy, avoid imposition and this will be seen when we come to conduct the National Convention. We are going to make it open- if we zoned something to the North, anybody in the North can go for it, if we zoned something to the South, anybody in the South can go for it. We are not going to be zoning a position to anywhere- let’s say for example, South and you limit it to only people from certain part of the region, No. Anybody from the South should come and contest for it. They should go round the country and make themselves known and all delegates should be free to choose who they want because if you don’t get it right in the election of the executives, you will hardly be able to get it right in the primaries. But if the process of choosing members of the National Executive is democratic, is guided by the principles of internal democracy, that is the principle they will carry to the stage of nomination of candidates for national, states or local government elective positions. So, how will this play out in the coming convention, especially the elective convention, would you still be contesting for the position of the National Chairman? I will not be contesting for the position of the National Chairman when the time comes. The party has found it difficult to conduct elective convention in August if we are not going to impose people because like I said, we should open the space; let people go and campaign, let Nigerians know them. It is not an appointment, it is an election and so, people will want to know who wants to be the chairman, the secretary, who wants to be this and that and we will choose the best. So, when we looked at the Electoral Act and the Party’s Constitution, it is absolutely impossible to conduct an election into offices on or beforeAugust 17. And in that case, the Supreme Court has acknowledged that the Convention is supreme and the caretaker set up is valid. [caption id="attachment_74811" align="alignright" width="640"] Ahmed Makarfi[/caption] Therefore, the party’s constitution provides that when there is a special case, a special convention can be called which is not elective can be called to take decision on that. So, we are calling the Special Convention to look at the time that needed to be added to the lifespan of the National Caretaker Committee which is already recognized by the Supreme Court to enable it conduct this transparent and all inclusive national election. All the zoning that was done by the party stands- the party has zoned the position of the national chairman to the south, zoned the presidency to the North and there has not been a review. Those decisions were taken at the Port Harcourt convention and the decision of a national convention of a political party as confirmed by the Supreme Court is valid. So, the Port Harcourt Convention of 21 May had already zoned the position of the national chairmanship to the South and the presidency to the North. It is only the National Convention that can reverse that and there is even no talk of reversing it. Your members in the South west are saying you should reserve the position of the national chairman for them and not made it all comers affair for PDP members in the South… When we say South, it is South; we didn’t zone it to Southeast, Southwest or South- south. And in all the positions we have zoned to the North, we didn’t say Northwest, Northeast or North central. But if there is only one candidate from the South and he or she happened to be from the Southwest, then it means that we have only one candidate standing for the election. [caption id="attachment_74812" align="alignright" width="550"] Ahmed Makarfi[/caption] Are you going to work towards that kind of consensus? I will not force any position on the party. If you don’t open the political landscape, then, you are not practicing internal party democracy. The party deserves to get the best national chairman that can lead it to the 2019 general elections and to do that; we must leave the political space open. If we have just one candidate, I will not say another person must come out, just as I will not tell another person not to come out. But there are already jostlings by members of your party who wanted to contest in the 2019 elections and they will certainly want to install people in different positions to facilitate their ambitions during the convention. How are you going to tackle this challenge? You cannot devoid this issue from any party at any convention. In every convention, you will hear of the underlying political interest and we are in politics. But I will be more concerned to see that the national delegates are freely elected and that they are freely allowed to elect whoever they wish to elect, but that interest will always be there. As a former governor and a former presidential aspirant, are you also looking at the PDP presidential ticket which has been zoned to the North where you also hail from? I am not looking at any particular ticket. I have a responsibility. You see, part of the issues that led to the suspicion and created crisis around Modu-Sheriff was that he was trying to combine that issue of leading the party with some kind of ambition. Rightly or wrongly, that is the general view and that created problem which brought us to where we are today. If I don’t learn from that, then, I must be a fool. I have been given a responsibility and my preoccupation is to discharge this responsibility efficiently and in such a way that we will have an all inclusive convention that will be transparent and democratic. Whatever becomes of me at this stage is not important. When I am done with that, whatever I want to do, I can make that decision for myself. But I cannot be having this responsibility and the trust reposed in me and then begin to talk of personal ambition. In essence, you are sacrificing your personal ambition for the sake of PDP now? Absolutely, I can sacrifice anything for the party. This national party position that I was given, I never thought of it, I didn’t look for it. So, I am not that sort of individual with quest for power anyhow it can be gotten. This assignment that has been given to me, I want to do it efficiently well, not just for the PDP, but for the good of this country and for the good of democracy because if you build a virile political party, you will get it right because virile political party will also produce good candidates, good candidates will become good leaders and good leaders will lead this country to greater heights. What about of if they put you under pressure again like they did in Port Harcourt? How can I be put under pressure when you have myriad of people already looking for it? Some of the things that people said were responsible for the emergence of Modu Sheriff as PDP Chairman was lack of strong individuals with deep pockets who can lead the party who is going to opposition after 16 years in power. Don’t you think this will also be a factor at the Convention? I don’t think so. First of all, I am not aware that Modu Sheriff spent his own personal money. He said so. But the records indicate that he was collecting money left, right and centre from both PDP and non-PDP people. That is the record that we have. So, it is not about deep pockets, so to say. And of course, in PDP, we have many capable hands from all nooks and crannies of this country. The Northern part of the country used to be one of the bastions of support for the PDP. But in the 2015 elections, the party was only able to win Gombe and Taraba States. So, how are you going to rebuild support for your party in this region? If free and fair election were to hold now, PDP will sweep the North. Are you sure of that? Let me give you an example. In the President’s senatorial district in Daura, Katsina State, the bye election in a constituency which was made up of two local governments- PDP clearly won in one local government as declared, PDP won in the second local government, thereby winning that federal constituency, but the result was not declared as such. And it was election observers that addressed the press that result announced by INEC was not a true reflection of the people’s choice. That’s in the president’s own state which is governed by APC, and the President’s senatorial zone. Even, if we did not win eventually, but we won one local government and they won one local government narrowly, let’s assume the result declared was the correct one. And you know bye-elections are easier to be won by sitting governors, but it is another issue entirely for general elections. In bye-elections, those in power can concentrate all the security forces and their men and women there in order to get a favourable result. But during the general elections, everyone is on his own; the voters will have a field day. You may not be able to intimidate everybody; you may be able to intimidate a few. What gives you the confidence that the PDP will return to power, especially given the number of your party members currently being tried for corruption at various courts, a fact which the APC will surely use to campaign against you in 2019? As journalists, you people have a great role to play in letting Nigerians know the truth. It is only when you are not in power that you can be assessed properly. But when you are in power, it is only when you happen to be on the wrong side of the ones that are in higher positions that you can be sacrificed in the guise of ‘there is no discrimination.” Let me give you an example of Osun State for instance. For about two and a half years, no commissioner was appointed, in the local governments, you only have sole administrators and that is an APC State. So, can you ask how was the government functioning? Which executive council was approving anything? How are the funds of the local governments being spent? Even, the issue of Paris Club Debt, as soon as it was released the issue of corruption crops up. They were just tips of the iceberg, even while APC is still in power. The EFCC is trying to do its job, but they are trying to curtail it one way or the other from doing its job. When you talk about corruption, you talk only about politicians- whether APC, PDP or whatever. But that is not correct. Look at the members of the Armed Forces- sum up all the total amounts the politicians that are being tried are alleged to have misappropriated, it may not be up to what two generals are being tried for. And that is apart from the civil servants and we always try to limit corruption to politicians who may have been responsible for just about the 10 or 20 per cent of the corruption, forgetting about the 80 per cent. We must fight corruption holistically, but the confining it to politicians, especially to politicians who are out of office, we would never be able to defeat corruption that way. [caption id="attachment_74811" align="alignright" width="640"] Ahmed Makarfi[/caption] What is the position of PDP in the ongoing agitations across the country for restructuring and in some cases, secession? We addressed a press conference in which we said PDP is for it and we also demand that there must be a clear procedure because restructuring means different things to different people. If you go to South-south, restructuring means resource control or fiscal federalism, if you go to South east, to some, it means Biafra; in the South west, it might mean Oodua State to some. So, there is no consensus. But what you restructure are things that are manifestly wrong whether the police or the institutions or the military, electoral bodies, political bodies they must be restructured in my opinion. The issue of fiscal federalism, we must look at it and address it to the satisfaction of all Nigerians. Will the PDP also set up a committee to come up with its own position on restructuring? Yes, there is the 2014 National Conference Report. It is a starting point, but it should be reviewed because after it was produced other issues have come up and we should not sweep them under the carpet. But again, we should not waste time on those things we already have some consensus on, just update it and submit it to the legislative process and see what will come out of it. But the current government said they will not touch the report even with a long pole? Yes, because to them, everything PDP did was wrong. But if they don’t want the report, let them do their own. You are a former governor of Kaduna State which has been in the news for all the wrong reasons in recent times. What do you think about what is going on in that state, especially the killings? It is unfortunate and it is not just in Kaduna State- the killings of innocent citizens are unfortunate and I have said many times that we must never politicize what is going on. We must unite and fight it. While some of the killings are linked to the herdsmen, but not all the herdsmen are criminals. There are criminal elements among them. But those herdsmen that are not criminal should work with the authorities; work with the local communities to fish out the criminal herdsmen. Some of them (the criminal herdsmen) may be local, some of them maybe foreigners because we have criminal elements coming into the country. It is only by working together that we can solve the problems; a blame game will only continue create gaps which the criminal elements will continue to use to sow greater discord in the society. You took certain steps to ensure that there was peace in Kaduna State while you were the governor. Are there some of those initiatives you want to share with the current governor as a way of stopping the current orgy of violence going on in the state? There are, but to be honest, my principle is that I don’t communicate with my successors through the media, especially when I know that there is a way of communicating with them directly and not just in Kaduna, current leaders should not shy away from seeking counsel from past leaders. There must be one or two things that past leaders must know that will be of benefit to them. We are not in position to make current leaders do our biddings, but definitely, we couldn’t have governed a place for four, eight years without having some rich knowledge of the genesis of some issues and how to go about tackling them. And it is because there is really no effective government in place. The government started with a crisis, it has continued to be in crisis. Under PDP when Obasanjo was in power, there was central authority, under Jonathan, there was a central authority, I am not saying there were no clashes here and there, but everybody knew where the buck stops. In a system in which people are creating cleavages of powers and interests and exercising them, how can you run the country effectively? Are you in touch with the current governor? I have never visited the government house, but I have a way of communicating with him. As a former Senator, what is your opinion on the frosty relationship between the executive and the National Assembly, specifically the Senate? It is not healthy. When two elephants fight, it is the grass that suffered. The Senate President Bukola Saraki is a good friend of mine; many of the senators are my friends. Of course, from the executive side, I don’t know much to be honest, but my plea is that they should find a common ground and kind of cool down for the sake of the country, find a meeting point to get us away from this avoidable crisis. [caption id="attachment_74812" align="alignright" width="550"] Ahmed Makarfi[/caption] It is slightly over two years into the life of this administration and how would you assess the performance? Let me go back to Kaduna State- a few days ago there was a football match which government’s representatives were present, but the crowd chased them away. It was not a political gathering. It is a football match only by the youths. And you can see the anger of the youth against a sitting government. So, you are in a major position to even answer this question. I don’t know if you have been able to pay your children’s school fees, your medical bills or your car is in a good order? And it is because there is really no effective government in place. The government started with a crisis, it has continued to be in crisis. Under PDP when Obasanjo was in power, there was central authority, under Jonathan, there was a central authority, I am not saying there were no clashes here and there, but everybody knew where the buck stops. In a system in which people are creating cleavages of powers and interests and exercising them, how can you run the country effectively? Many believe that the illness of the President has contributed to the situation you have just described now. Are you also in support of the argument that the President should resign if he cannot continue so that the country can move on? Those that are saying that are politicizing the situation in my opinion. Once you have the Acting President, who says he has limited powers? Who is stopping him? Maybe he is one that is not capable. When Jonathan was Acting President, didn’t he even dissolve cabinet? So, why should we be talking about a person who has transferred power to another person? It is because this government is used to excuses. If it is not PDP, it is this, it is that when they have everything in their hands, they want to continue to give excuses. I will not buy that. There are reports of some cabals not allowing the Acting President to fully exercise those powers… Let him come out and tell Nigerians who those cabals are. That’ why I said, excuses, excuses, excuses. Imaginary things. If I were there and somebody is trying to stop me, I will fight the person