[caption id="attachment_39080" align="alignright" width="400"] Femi Falana [/caption] Femi Falana, Senior Advocate of Nigeria, SAN, and a fiery human rights lawyer, has an unalloyed passion for issues bordering on the common man and for almost three decades, he has been in the vanguard for a just and egalitarian society. Last week, the lawyer granted TheNEWS an interview at his Ikeja GRA, Lagos Chambers. During the chat with Ademola Adegbamigbe, Editor, TheNEWS; David Odey, Editor, P.M.NEWS; Funsho Arogundade and Idowu Ogunleye, Photo Editor, who snapped the shots, Falana spoke on the corruption war of President Muhammadu Buhari and how he can succeed in the fight, the Dasuki/Armsgate scandal, the fuel subsidy saga and the looting of Abacha loot Q: What do you think could be responsible for the recurring issue of corruption that has been identified as our major problem right from the First Republic? A: In the first place, we have to locate corruption in the socio-economic system that we operate. Corruption was inherited from the colonial administration. It is very important to note that the slave trade was corruption on the part of the West. Colonialism was corruption on the part of the West. For example, they descended on our people, exploited their human and natural resources and carted them away. And for four centuries, people in Africa were kidnapped, stolen and taken to Europe and the Americas. At the end of the slave trade, colonialism set in. Again, for over a hundred years, taxes were illegally collected, our resources were taken away without our consent. So, colonialism was anchored on corruption. Of course, laws were enacted by the colonial administration to legitimise the stealing of our resources. They also imposed laws to stop us from protesting and to keep us silent. Their obnoxious laws on seditious publications and the rest of them were meant to silence the colonial subjects. Secondly, the independence struggle was compromised. The nationalists were bribed to accept the continued underdevelopment of Nigeria. In our history books, even in political science lectures in our universities, students are still told of the advantages of colonial rule. Political science students are told that human rights were introduced in our Constitution to allay the fears of the minorities in the country. That is dubious history because in all the colonies, the imperial regimes failed to recognise human rights. But because there was the need to protect the interests of the colonial masters after they might have departed, human rights were then entrenched in all the constitutions of independent states . The first generation of politicians, having learnt corruption from the colonial administration, continued in the first republic. But at that time, it didn’t go beyond 10 per cent. In other words, if you were awarded a contract, all that was taken away corruptly was not more than 10 per cent. But the situation became worse and the crisis became compounded when military adventurers took over the politics of Nigeria. [caption id="attachment_39081" align="alignright" width="263"] Femi Falana [/caption] Whereas in 1966, one of the allegations levelled against the civilian regime was that 10 percenters had taken over the country. But under successive military regimes, corruption assumed a dangerous dimension. Indeed, under the Ibrahim Babangida junta, corruption became the directive principle of state policy. The menace of corruption became institutionalised. And with the introduction of the imperialist-inspired Structural Adjustment Programme, SAP, the middle class was wiped out of our system completely. You are either very rich or extremely poor. So, it became the survival of the fittest. Whereas, if the state had continued to promote the welfare of the generality of the people, if the young people leaving schools were gainfully employed, if there were facilities in our schools to accommodate new students, we wouldn’t need Joint Admission and Matriculation Board, JAMB. But JAMB was a product of the crisis of insufficiency of space in the universities. So, to get admission, corruption had to set in. That has been our undoing. In other words, the socio-economic system that we are practising, a neo-colonial capitalist system manned by a short sighted and parasitic ruling class cannot but be corrupt. Unlike Western or advanced capitalist states where the rule of law has taken roots, there is a facade of equality before the law. Whoever you are, once you are caught, as Professor Akin Oyebode would put it, once you commit the eleventh commandment of the bourgeoisie, which is “Thou shall not be caught”, the law will deal with you. In such a society we talk of the rule of law but in a neo-colonial environment like ours, we talk of the rule of the rulers. Here, the rule of law is the law of the rulers. If you are a big man or woman, you are influential and well-connected, if you violate the law, the law will be bent to accommodate your criminality. In the last seven years, the impunity of the ruling class became unprecedented. It was a complete laissez faire approach to governance. Anybody could do whatever he wanted. We had a situation where a Special Adviser usurped the functions of the Minister of Defence. He usurped the functions of the service chiefs and took over the ruling party. Out of sheer impunity he was dishing out the funds of this country to whoever he liked. You can only have such a system in an environment of crass impunity. Hence, over the years, corruption has assumed a catastrophic proportion in our country. But the government is to be blamed, aided by the media, religious bodies and traditional institutions. When we had no Economic and Financial Crimes Commission, EFCC, and Independent Corrupt Practices and Other Related Offences Commission, ICPC, the media fought corruption in Nigeria and assisted the society to maintain high ethical standards. In the 1970s under the Gowon regime, it was a case of ‘if you Daboh me, I Tarka you’. Then, it was a case of no matter how powerful you were in government, once you were caught and a concerned person rushed to court to file an affidavit, the press would not let go until such a person resigned from the government. Until recently, in the churches and mosques, corrupt people were ostracised but today they are celebrated and given religious titles and chieftaincy titles by traditional rulers. Indeed, under the Ibrahim Babangida junta, corruption became the directive principle of state policy. The menace of corruption became institutionalised. And with the introduction of the imperialist-inspired Structural Adjustment Programme, SAP, the middle class was wiped out of our system completely. You are either very rich or extremely poor. So, it became the survival of the fittest. Whereas, if the state had continued to promote the welfare of the generality of the people, if the young people leaving schools were gainfully employed, if there were facilities in our schools to accommodate new students, we wouldn’t need Joint Admission and Matriculation Board, JAMB. But JAMB was a product of the crisis of insufficiency of space in the universities. So, to get admission, corruption had to set in. That has been our undoing. They are also celebrated by the media. We even have a situation in our country today, whereby a person is charged with looting the treasury to the tune of billions of naira, jobless people are recruited to demonstrate in his support in the court premises to demand for his release. The criminal suspect is treated like a political detainee. That is the level we have degenerated to in this country. But as I often say, the government must never be allowed to give the impression that corruption is the root cause of our crises of underdevelopment. The point I am making is that corruption is a manifestation of the socio-economic system that we are practising. So, there is no amount of goodwill, no amount of good faith on the part of President Buhari or his administration, that will stop corruption without addressing the root cause of the crime. Q: What are those root causes? A: Chapter two of the Nigerian Constitution stipulates that the economy of Nigeria shall be operated in such a manner that the happiness of our people is promoted. That no person or a group of persons shall be allowed to control the means of production and exchange, and that the resources of our country will be harnessed or husbanded to provide for all and sundry. But what do we have today? Liberalisation. Open all our borders and allow goods to come in to destroy our local industries and the economy. Sell the assets of the government to a few rent collectors, who use the same assets as collaterals to take loans from the banks. What about the guys who bought the electricity Distribution Companies, DISCOs. Before the government sold the DISCOs to them, electricity tariffs were increased. According to the Nigerian Electricity Regulatory Commission, NERC, this was done to make them attractive to the investors. Upon the sale of DISCOs at give-away prices, the government made available to the buyers what they called ‘an intervention fund’ of about N300 billion. Since then, in addition to generating darkness, tariffs have been incessantly increased. Even where no electricity has been supplied at all, prohibitive bills have been imposed on hapless Nigerians. And contrary to the law the government does not intervene on behalf of the people. My position is that unless the government is prepared to drop the policies of Structural Adjustment Programme that is liberalisation, privatisation, and all other policies that are meant to under develop our country, we cannot stop corruption. In an atmosphere of impunity and uncertainty people are bound to make ends meet through illegal means. [caption id="attachment_39082" align="alignright" width="391"] Femi Falana [/caption] In any modern state, no public officer saves millions to build a house. How much is your salary? How can a public officer acquire a mansion in Abuja through legitimate means? In any modern state, you must have in place an effective mortgage system. You must have arrangement in place that allows anyone who wants to buy a car to pay monthly or on a yearly basis. You must have a system that takes from the rich to serve the poor. That is what capitalism is about. All those who earn below certain levels in America have their children taken care of by the government. The state pays their school fees and takes care of their health challenges. Some of our women travel to the United States to deliver babies because the system takes care of those kids. Their future is guaranteed. So, unless the state is prepared to make the welfare and security of our people as enjoined by the Section 14 of the Constitution the primary purpose of government, we cannot reduce corruption substantially. Because corruption feasts on inadequacies, lack of facilities and lack of opportunities. So, while the Buhari government might be commended for having the political will to deal with the corrupt people, it must go further to challenge our socio-economic system that is built on exploitation and corruption. Q: Do we have adequate laws to deal with corruption? A: We have more than enough laws to deal with corruption. But there are certain inbuilt frustrations in the system that make it impossible for those who have looted the wealth of the country to be brought to book. Q: What are those frustrations? A: In the first place, you will be surprised to know that there is a law that prescribes life imprisonment for corrupt people. The law is there but the ruling class will not touch that. The Recovery of Properties Act prescribes life imprisonment for whoever has stolen more than a million naira. The least punishment under that law is five years. Under the Criminal Code, stealing attracts seven years imprisonment. But what the ruling class does through the EFCC is to charge influential crooks with money laundering. Mind you, the maximum punishment for money laundering is two years. Since the Court of Appeal decided the case of James Ibori v Federal Republic of Nigeria, bail has become automatic for people charged with corruption and other serious economic and financial crimes. Once you get your bail, you apply for your international passport. In another Ibori’s case, the Court of Appeal held that giving somebody bail without releasing his passport is a denial of his freedom of movement. If you compare that to what happens to the ordinary man, in fact, he (the ordinary man) has no passport not to talk of travelling abroad. Even if he has a passport he cannot raise money to travel overseas. In any case, common people are rarely granted bail. That is what is happening in the case of the fellow leading the pro-Biafran cause, Nnamdi Kanu. He has not been granted bail because he’s alleged to have threatened the security of the state. But those who are accused of stealing billions, monies meant for arms procurement, monies meant for building hospitals, for job creation and the rest are granted bail even though they threaten our collective security. I am talking of the class character of the bourgeoisie legal system in Nigeria. Out of class solidarity, our judges ensure that big people are kept in the cosy cells of the EFCC while the poor are kept in the prison while awaiting trial. When you are a big man, you have access to very senior counsel. In most cases, the poor have no lawyer at all. At best, they are defended by young lawyers undergoing youth service with the Legal Aid Council. Once a big man is admitted to bail, his lawyer will file a frivolous appeal and stay of proceedings and hang the case for the next 10 years. There was a guy who hanged a case for 14 years. So, by the time the interlocutory appeals are concluded, the State could no longer find the witnesses and the society would have lost interest in the case. The judge is likely to have been promoted, retired or transferred. Hence such cases are struck out for want of diligent prosecution. And the big man goes back to enjoy his loot. I am talking of the class character of the bourgeoisie legal system in Nigeria. Out of class solidarity, our judges ensure that big people are kept in the cosy cells of the EFCC while the poor are kept in the prison while awaiting trial. When you are a big man, you have access to very senior counsel. In most cases, the poor have no lawyer at all. At best, they are defended by young lawyers undergoing youth service with the Legal Aid Council. Once a big man is admitted to bail, his lawyer will file a frivolous appeal and stay of proceedings and hang the case for the next 10 years. Q: Are you saying the judiciary is complicit in this issue? A: I would say the legal system is complicit. Out of class solidarity judges are bound to identify with the ruling class. The so-called corrupt people are influential members of the ruling class. You don’t treat a VIP shabbily. Have you ever seen the police parading a former governor? They only parade the poor. I am talking of victims of socio-economic injustice like armed robbery suspects. People who took to robbery because they have no job. Young people who took to kidnapping because they are unemployed. I am sure you know that armed robbery and kidnapping attract the death penalty; money laundering attracts two years imprisonment or option of fine. When VIPs who loot the treasury are convicted they are asked to pay a ridiculously low fine . So, the government has to look at the legal system. It was the resolve of the government to stop unending trials and suspension of criminal cases, particularly cases of terrorism and corruption, that led to the promulgation of the ‘Administration of Criminal Justice Act’ of 2015. Even right now, there are moves by agents of impunity to make a mockery of the law. For instance, under the law once the plea of the accused is taken, trials shall be conducted day by day. But corruption cases are being adjourned for two or three months by trial judges. The National Judicial Council ought to intervene to save the image of the judiciary in the interest of the majority of our judges who are incorruptible. [caption id="attachment_39082" align="alignright" width="391"] Femi Falana [/caption] Q: Why have senior lawyers like you not pointed out this gradual abuse of the law? A: We are doing that already. For doing just that there are threats to jail me for contempt of court. Is that not laughable? Having been jailed by all manner of military dictators why should I be afraid to be jailed under a democratic government for fighting corruption and impunity? Anyway, I am anxiously waiting for the summons. Q: Could it be this situation you pointed out that informed your decision to approach the International Criminal Court, ICC, on the issue of Dasuki and armsgate? A: Not really. Of course, I am not unaware that Nigerians now prefer that justice be outsourced because of lack of confidence in our judicial system. But I can assured you that the situation is no longer as bad as it used to be a few months ago. With the Administration of Criminal Justice Act, I expect that within the next six months, some of these cases would have been concluded. Once there is no stay of proceedings, trials shall be conducted speedily. In the case of those who diverted the money meant for the procurement of arms, we have concrete evidence that they violated the Rome Statute. The Statute provides for crimes against humanity and genocide. By engaging in criminal diversion and sharing of funds appropriated for procurement of arms and other military equipment to fight terrorism which then led to the brutal killing of over 25,000 soldiers and civilians including children, the guys indicted by the arms procurement panel are liable to be prosecuted for crimes against humanity. The suspects are vicariously liable and responsible for such brutal death of those who were killed by the terrorists. I almost shouted myself hoarse before the military courts which tried and sentenced some of our young soldiers to death for asking for arms to fight the well equipped insurgents. Seventy of them who were sentenced to death would have been killed but for the legal resistance we put up. They would have been killed by those who stole blood money or the “blood they are sharing” (apologies to Mrs Patience Jonathan). Our petition is going to be submitted to the special prosecutor of the ICC. Q: How soon are you doing that? A: The petition is ready. It will be deposited next week (this week). Q: There have been some claims and counter claims on the figures on this ‘Armsgate’ scandal. As someone who has supported the EFCC in the investigations, what is your view on this? A: The claims and counterclaims have not denied the criminal diversion of the fund earmarked for military hardware to fight insurgency. That is the bottom line. Those who distributed the money have named the beneficiaries. Some of those who have not been arrested have given their own version of the shameful story but none has denied ever taking money. One of the suspects alleged that N600 million was distributed to the six geo-political zone leaders of a particular party at N100 million per person. One of the beneficiaries admitted that he collected money but that what he collected was not up to the amount alleged. Another one said ‘oh, I took money but it was for contracts’. I think somebody else said he took money for campaign for the 2015 Presidential elections or that it was for a contract to launder the image of the government. What was the money meant for? In fact, one even said he didn’t know that the money he was given was stolen. If you collected thousands of dollars or millions of naira from a minister of state, was that from his salary? If you are a politician and you were given money for party mobilisation, was that part of that minister’s official functions? These are the issues that have not been addressed. How does a government headed by a man who even led a powerful delegation to Israel justify the sum of N4.7 billion given to marabouts? Q: Would you support the ‘Chinese Option’ some people are clamouring for should the accused people be found guilty? A: No. I have never been a supporter of capital punishment. But I believe very strongly that the full weight of the law should descend heavily on those who have sentenced our people to eternal agony. Those who are talking of human rights of looters conveniently forget that 70 soldiers have been sentenced to death and are awaiting the hangman. For what offence? Because they asked for weapons to fight the Boko Haram insurgents. Air Vice Marshall Alex Badeh, the former Chief of Defence Staff, abused the hell out of the boys. He challenged me and said next time, the army will take the boys to the bush and shoot them without trial. The same senior officer later said that the armed forces he led as Chief of Defence Staff were not equipped to fight the insurgents. Q: You are also the lawyer to the dismissed Brigadier-General Enitan Ransome-Kuti... A: Enitan Ransome-Kuti, a Brigadier-General, led his boys to the battlefront in Baga, Borno State because many of the soldiers had deserted the army. Their complaints was that they didn’t have the weapons to fight. They said they didn’t join the army to commit suicide, but that they joined the army to fight and if they die in the process, so be it. Asking them to confront the well-armed terrorists was considered suicidal. So they left. In order to motivate the rest, Ransome-Kuti, a Brigadier-General, led them to the battlefront. At a stage Badeh, the then Chief of Defence Staff sent him (Ransome-Kuti) an email to the effect that the Nigerien troops, who were part of the Joint Multinational Force operations had withdrawn from Baga. It was a way of telling Enitan and his troops, ‘You are on your own’. And Enitan replied the email. He advised his boss that to prevent Baga from being overrun, he needed to construct a perimeter fence around the military camp. Badeh replied and asked him, ‘How many kilometres?’ The Brigadier-General said it’s eight kilometres. Shockingly, Badeh said if the perimeter was more than a kilometre, then there was no money. And that was the end of the conversation. Two weeks later, the place was invaded by the heavily armed insurgents. Yet, Ransome-Kuti quickly mobilised his men to resist the invasion. But because of the superiority of the weapons of the terrorists, and the fact that they outnumbered his men, he had to engage in the tactical withdrawal of the troops. Otherwise, the troops would have been massacred. Of course, they lost Baga. So when he was charged with cowardly behaviour, loss of equipment and negligent performance of military duties, I made it clear to the authorities that to charge a member of the Kuti family for cowardly behaviour was the unkindest cut, in the words of William Shakespeare. Based on our defence the members of the Special Court-Martial were compelled to drop the charge of cowardly behaviour. However, they ran into contradictions by asking him to defend the loss of equipment and negligent performance of military duty. Having heard that in the circumstance he found himself, he took the right decision by withdrawing his men, it was illogical to talk of negligent performance of duty. Secondly, since he took the right decision by withdrawing his men, was he expected to lead the troops to recapture unserviceable equipment? But at the end of the day, he was dismissed from the Army, his promising career was abruptly terminated while he was sentenced to six months imprisonment. For what purpose? Because of the irresponsibility or criminality of those who diverted the huge fund that was meant for buying military equipment. This is why we are going to the International Criminal Court. Q: Is General Ransome-Kuti’s case going to be reviewed by the Federal Government? A: Yes, for sure. His case is being reviewed by the Federal Government. I have had cause to commend the Federal Government for recalling 3002 officers and soldiers who were illegally dismissed by the previous administration. They were made sacrificial lambs. The military authorities wanted Nigerians to believe that General Ransome-Kuti and other convicted soldiers were sabotaging the efforts of Jonathan’s government in fighting the menace of Boko Haram. But from what we have seen lately, we now know the truth and that Dr. Jonathan was right when he said the sponsors of Boko Haram were in his government. That has been proved. So, I expect the government to move speedily to quash the illegal conviction of the soldiers. [caption id="attachment_39083" align="alignright" width="387"] Femi Falana [/caption] Q: Can you share with us your perspective on the new ministers particularly Babatunde Fashola, who obviously is carrying very strategic responsibilities as the Power, Works and Housing minister? What’s your advice for him? A: I think President Buhari has implicit confidence in Mr. Babatunde Fashola, SAN. He has been saddled with enormous responsibilities. My only advice to him is that he should desist from promoting neo-liberal policies. Before increasing tariff, the government should guarantee some measure of electricity. If you want to restore toll gates, you must fix the roads. Today, Nigeria has about 16 million citizens who are homeless. Fashola should ensure that affordable houses are built for Nigerians. It is not the business of the government to build houses for the rich who have access to mortgage facilities. Q: But Fashola said he is going to adopt the model used in Lagos... A: With respect, that will not be in consonance with the manifesto of the APC and the aspirations of the Nigerian people. Governments exist to build houses for the poor because the rich can take care of themselves. If I have N40 million to N50 million to buy a house from the government I should be encouraged to approach a bank for a loan. The government should engage mortgage institutions to invest in mass housing and take advantage of that to address the unemployment problem. Instead of giving out the money to contractors, set up a building brigade, supervised by the engineers in the Ministry of Works and Housing. The government shouldn’t turn democracy to ‘contractocracy’. We need a government of the people and not of contractors. So, if the mantra of the government is ‘Change’, there must be a radically different way of running the government. The government must maximise the talents in the public service. We have some of the best engineers in the government departments, we have to use them. Many of the contractors servicing the government are not as educated as the engineers working in the ministries. [caption id="attachment_39084" align="alignright" width="387"] Femi Falana [/caption] Q: The menace of the Fulani herdsmen seems to be growing exponentially and it appears nothing is being done to arrest the situation... A: I have threatened to drag the government to court. The right to life is the most basic of all human rights. If the government is not going to stop the violent clashes we shall pray the court to intervene to stop the reckless bloodletting. This was my position when Chief Olu Falae was kidnapped in Akure the other day. It is not rocket science to produce meat. We have suggested that there should be ranches in the states where there is large scale livestock and meat will be produced and distributed throughout the country. It is very primitive for a cattle rearer to travel over a thousand kilometres. As a rearer, he would need to graze his cattle and that would lead to clashes. I tried to point out that the clashes between farmers and the Fulani herdsmen was a recent phenomenon which could not be solved by issuing threats to break up Nigeria. I reminded the Afenifere leaders that there was a special breed of cattle in the Southwest called ‘Elila’ imported from Argentina by the late Chief Obafemi Awolowo. They were bred locally. But where are they now? They became extinct as they were not replaced. We didn’t have any clash then. The largest abattoir in Africa was completed in Ibadan, Oyo State since May 2011 but the Oyo State Government has not allowed it to be commissioned for inexplicable reasons. In the Second Republic, the Adekunle Ajasin administration in Ondo State had a ranch in Otun Ekiti. Those who took over the government after him could not maintain the place. The Southwest region consumes 10,000 heads of cattle daily. It has not occurred to any of the governors to set up a ranch and abattoir to produce meat and send it to other parts of the region. That is the only way to stop this menace. The Federal Government through the Federal Ministry of Agriculture has to solve the problem by establishing ranches and abattoirs all over the country. It is as simple as that. It is not rocket science. Q: What would be your suggestion to the Buhari government on the issue of fuel scarcity? Would you support the removal of fuel subsidy? A: The Olusegun Obasanjo administration increased fuel price eight times and Jonathan increased it once. At the end of the day the crisis of fuel subsidy has remained with us. What some of us say is that you must not punish the people of Nigeria for the negligence of the ruling class. Why should Nigerians be punished for the criminal behaviour of the bandits who smuggle oil across the borders? How can a government of a modern state be so helpless in the hands of oil thieves? Nigeria is the only oil producing country that imports refined petroleum products. Unless we have refineries, the problem will continue. The Dangote Group is constructing a refinery which may not be ready until 2018. So, within the next two years, what should the government do? Firstly, the government should build modular refineries, which can be constructed between six and nine months. They are not expensive and they are effective. Many of our neighbouring countries have such refineries. Secondly, you don’t need to go to Europe and America to refine crude oil and then import fuel for local consumption. The NNPC is allocated 445,000 barrels per day for domestic consumption. The NNPC sells the allocation through what is called ‘oil swap or scam’. A few years ago, I persuaded NNPC to refine in some of the neighbouring countries. Today, Nigeria refines 60,000 barrel of crude oil from Cote d’Ivoire which has no oil. That’s why we have suggested that crude oil be refined in African countries and that will reduce the cost of freight or the expensive ‘landing cost’. Even right now there is a lot of fraud in the fuel subsidy regime. The government is yet to confirm the number of litres of Premium Motor Spirit, PMS, consumed by Nigerians daily. The government has to look at the management of the subsidy regime. There is an agency called Petroleum Equalisation Fund, which is allocated billions of naira annually, and the purpose of the agency is to ensure that fuel is sold at the same price all over the country. The agency is supposed to bridge the difference for marketers. Thirdly, the government has to ensure that the regulatory agencies function effectively. Therefore, while we await the emergence of new refineries in the country by the Dangote Group and others, the government should quickly build modular refineries. Once you can refine locally the so-called subsidy would be removed. Q: Minister of State for Petroleum Resources, Dr. Ibe Kachikwu said government will begin a partial removal of subsidy from next year and looking at fixing price at N97... A: That is the wish of the government. The price of fuel is fixed by law. Section 6 of the Petroleum Act imposes a duty on the minister to fix the price of petroleum products. The minister has to look at the law and the PPPRA Act which has also imposed a duty on the government to sensitise the public and meet the stakeholders before announcing a new price of fuel. To the best of my knowledge the PPPRA board has not met to take a decision. No mobilisation or sensitisation has taken place. I want to assume that the government is not trying ro provoke Nigerians by increasing electricity tariff, fuel price and road tax at the same time. This is not the change that the APC promised Nigerians during the electioneering campaign. Q: Much has been said about the Abacha loot. We have heard various claims by the former Finance Minister and Coordinating Minister of the Economy, Dr. Ngozi Okonjo-Iweala on how much they have recovered so far and how much have been spent. What have you to say about this very sensitive issue given the fear that the loot has been re-looted? A: It has now been confirmed that the Abacha loot has been re-looted contrary to the claims of Madam Ngozi Okonjo-Iweala and the World Bank. Whereas Nigerians were told that only $500 million had been recovered and that indeed, the recovered loot been judiciously spent, not less than $4 billion has been recovered. Q: How did you arrive at that figure? A: I arrived at the figures from those who recovered a substantial part of the loot. During the General Abdulsalam Abubakar regime, a panel of enquiry was set up. At the end of the exercise, the Abubakar junta recovered $635 million; £75million; 30 million Deutsche Mark and N9 billion as well as several properties in Lagos, Abuja and Kano including 40 per cent interest in a refinery in Sierra Leone. The totality of the recovery is over $1 billion. The funds and assets are listed in Decree No. 53 of 1999. Under the Olusegun Obasanjo administration the recovery continued. In the second volume of his book, ‘My Watch’, Obasanjo said by the time he left office, his government had recovered $ 2 billion; £100 million; and over N10 billion in cash and properties. Even under President Jonathan, the recovery also recorded success. While withdrawing the charge of N446 million theft against Mr. Mohammed Abacha, the government issued a statement to the effect that the action was taken to facilitate the recovery of $380 million from Luxembourg and $550 million from forfeiture proceedings instituted by the U.S. government. Furthermore, the government claimed that there was a recovery of $222 million from Liechestein, in addition to 7.5 million Euros that was recovered from another associate as well as £22.5 million from Jersey, an Island in the UK. In confirming the criminal diversion of the Abacha loot, Okonjo-Iweala has admitted that she gave $322 million to a former security adviser, Col. Sambo Dasuki and that $700 million was expected from abroad. But in addition to what she admitted, another sum of £5.5 million was given to Dasuki. There was no appropriation. She alluded to what she called the urgency of the situation. That was a ‘self-induced urgency’ to warrant the illegal release of the fund. But when the same administration wanted to take a loan of $1 billion, there was enough time to approach the National Assembly for approval. President Jonathan went to the National Assembly for approval in September last year to take a loan of $1 billion to buy military equipment. How can a finance minister say that she did not need parliamentary approval to release N68 billion because of the urgency of the situation. Last year, I asked Okonjo-Iweala for the inventory of the arms bought with the $1 billion loan, she said she could not give me the inventory as it was a “military affair”. That was a euphemism for the criminal diversion of the money. I hope the World Bank will assist her to account for the illegal release of the Abacha loot which was later shared by PDP chieftains. The bulk of the sharing took place after the presidential election. They were so daring in the criminal enterprise. For goodness sake, all the indicted persons should pay for their perfidious role in the armsgate.