Q: Why have senior lawyers like you not pointed out this gradual abuse of the law?
A: We are doing that already. For doing just that there are threats to jail me for contempt of court. Is that not laughable? Having been jailed by all manner of military dictators why should I be afraid to be jailed under a democratic government for fighting corruption and impunity? Anyway, I am anxiously waiting for the summons.

Q: Could it be this situation you pointed out that informed your decision to approach the International Criminal Court, ICC, on the issue of Dasuki and armsgate?
A: Not really. Of course, I am not unaware that Nigerians now prefer that justice be outsourced because of lack of confidence in our judicial system. But I can assured you that the situation is no longer as bad as it used to be a few months ago. With the Administration of Criminal Justice Act, I expect that within the next six months, some of these cases would have been concluded. Once there is no stay of proceedings, trials shall be conducted speedily. In the case of those who diverted the money meant for the procurement of arms, we have concrete evidence that they violated the Rome Statute. The Statute provides for crimes against humanity and genocide. By engaging in criminal diversion and sharing of funds appropriated for procurement of arms and other military equipment to fight terrorism which then led to the brutal killing of over 25,000 soldiers and civilians including children, the guys indicted by the arms procurement panel are liable to be prosecuted for crimes against humanity.

The suspects are vicariously liable and responsible for such brutal death of those who were killed by the terrorists. I almost shouted myself hoarse before the military courts which tried and sentenced some of our young soldiers to death for asking for arms to fight the well equipped insurgents. Seventy of them who were sentenced to death would have been killed but for the legal resistance we put up. They would have been killed by those who stole blood money or the “blood they are sharing” (apologies to Mrs Patience Jonathan). Our petition is going to be submitted to the special prosecutor of the ICC.

Q: How soon are you doing that?
A: The petition is ready. It will be deposited next week (this week).

Q: There have been some claims and counter claims on the figures on this ‘Armsgate’ scandal. As someone who has supported the EFCC in the investigations, what is your view on this?

A: The claims and counterclaims have not denied the criminal diversion of the fund earmarked for military hardware to fight insurgency. That is the bottom line. Those who distributed the money have named the beneficiaries. Some of those who have not been arrested have given their own version of the shameful story but none has denied ever taking money. One of the suspects alleged that N600 million was distributed to the six geo-political zone leaders of a particular party at N100 million per person. One of the beneficiaries admitted that he collected money but that what he collected was not up to the amount alleged. Another one said ‘oh, I took money but it was for contracts’.

I think somebody else said he took money for campaign for the 2015 Presidential elections or that it was for a contract to launder the image of the government. What was the money meant for? In fact, one even said he didn’t know that the money he was given was stolen. If you collected thousands of dollars or millions of naira from a minister of state, was that from his salary? If you are a politician and you were given money for party mobilisation, was that part of that minister’s official functions? These are the issues that have not been addressed. How does a government headed by a man who even led a powerful delegation to Israel justify the sum of N4.7 billion given to marabouts?

Q: Would you support the ‘Chinese Option’ some people are clamouring for should the accused people be found guilty?
A: No. I have never been a supporter of capital punishment. But I believe very strongly that the full weight of the law should descend heavily on those who have sentenced our people to eternal agony. Those who are talking of human rights of looters conveniently forget that 70 soldiers have been sentenced to death and are awaiting the hangman. For what offence? Because they asked for weapons to fight the Boko Haram insurgents. Air Vice Marshall Alex Badeh, the former Chief of Defence Staff, abused the hell out of the boys. He challenged me and said next time, the army will take the boys to the bush and shoot them without trial. The same senior officer later said that the armed forces he led as Chief of Defence Staff were not equipped to fight the insurgents.

Q: You are also the lawyer to the dismissed Brigadier-General Enitan Ransome-Kuti…
A: Enitan Ransome-Kuti, a Brigadier-General, led his boys to the battlefront in Baga, Borno State because many of the soldiers had deserted the army. Their complaints was that they didn’t have the weapons to fight. They said they didn’t join the army to commit suicide, but that they joined the army to fight and if they die in the process, so be it. Asking them to confront the well-armed terrorists was considered suicidal. So they left. In order to motivate the rest, Ransome-Kuti, a Brigadier-General, led them to the battlefront. At a stage Badeh, the then Chief of Defence Staff sent him (Ransome-Kuti) an email to the effect that the Nigerien troops, who were part of the Joint Multinational Force operations had withdrawn from Baga. It was a way of telling Enitan and his troops, ‘You are on your own’. And Enitan replied the email. He advised his boss that to prevent Baga from being overrun, he needed to construct a perimeter fence around the military camp. Badeh replied and asked him, ‘How many kilometres?’ The Brigadier-General said it’s eight kilometres. Shockingly, Badeh said if the perimeter was more than a kilometre, then there was no money.

And that was the end of the conversation. Two weeks later, the place was invaded by the heavily armed insurgents. Yet, Ransome-Kuti quickly mobilised his men to resist the invasion. But because of the superiority of the weapons of the terrorists, and the fact that they outnumbered his men, he had to engage in the tactical withdrawal of the troops. Otherwise, the troops would have been massacred. Of course, they lost Baga. So when he was charged with cowardly behaviour, loss of equipment and negligent performance of military duties, I made it clear to the authorities that to charge a member of the Kuti family for cowardly behaviour was the unkindest cut, in the words of William Shakespeare. Based on our defence the members of the Special Court-Martial were compelled to drop the charge of cowardly behaviour. However, they ran into contradictions by asking him to defend the loss of equipment and negligent performance of military duty. Having heard that in the circumstance he found himself, he took the right decision by withdrawing his men, it was illogical to talk of negligent performance of duty. Secondly, since he took the right decision by withdrawing his men, was he expected to lead the troops to recapture unserviceable equipment? But at the end of the day, he was dismissed from the Army, his promising career was abruptly terminated while he was sentenced to six months imprisonment. For what purpose? Because of the irresponsibility or criminality of those who diverted the huge fund that was meant for buying military equipment. This is why we are going to the International Criminal Court.

Q: Is General Ransome-Kuti’s case going to be reviewed by the Federal Government?
A: Yes, for sure. His case is being reviewed by the Federal Government. I have had cause to commend the Federal Government for recalling 3002 officers and soldiers who were illegally dismissed by the previous administration. They were made sacrificial lambs. The military authorities wanted Nigerians to believe that General Ransome-Kuti and other convicted soldiers were sabotaging the efforts of Jonathan’s government in fighting the menace of Boko Haram. But from what we have seen lately, we now know the truth and that Dr. Jonathan was right when he said the sponsors of Boko Haram were in his government. That has been proved. So, I expect the government to move speedily to quash the illegal conviction of the soldiers.

Q: Can you share with us your perspective on the new ministers particularly Babatunde Fashola, who obviously is carrying very strategic responsibilities as the Power, Works and Housing minister? What’s your advice for him?
A: I think President Buhari has implicit confidence in Mr. Babatunde Fashola, SAN. He has been saddled with enormous responsibilities. My only advice to him is that he should desist from promoting neo-liberal policies. Before increasing tariff, the government should guarantee some measure of electricity. If you want to restore toll gates, you must fix the roads. Today, Nigeria has about 16 million citizens who are homeless. Fashola should ensure that affordable houses are built for Nigerians. It is not the business of the government to build houses for the rich who have access to mortgage facilities.

Q: But Fashola said he is going to adopt the model used in Lagos…
A: With respect, that will not be in consonance with the manifesto of the APC and the aspirations of the Nigerian people. Governments exist to build houses for the poor because the rich can take care of themselves. If I have N40 million to N50 million to buy a house from the government I should be encouraged to approach a bank for a loan. The government should engage mortgage institutions to invest in mass housing and take advantage of that to address the unemployment problem. Instead of giving out the money to contractors, set up a building brigade, supervised by the engineers in the Ministry of Works and Housing. The government shouldn’t turn democracy to ‘contractocracy’. We need a government of the people and not of contractors. So, if the mantra of the government is ‘Change’, there must be a radically different way of running the government. The government must maximise the talents in the public service. We have some of the best engineers in the government departments, we have to use them. Many of the contractors servicing the government are not as educated as the engineers working in the ministries.

Q: The menace of the Fulani herdsmen seems to be growing exponentially and it appears nothing is being done to arrest the situation…
A: I have threatened to drag the government to court. The right to life is the most basic of all human rights. If the government is not going to stop the violent clashes we shall pray the court to intervene to stop the reckless bloodletting. This was my position when Chief Olu Falae was kidnapped in Akure the other day. It is not rocket science to produce meat. We have suggested that there should be ranches in the states where there is large scale livestock and meat will be produced and distributed throughout the country. It is very primitive for a cattle rearer to travel over a thousand kilometres. As a rearer, he would need to graze his cattle and that would lead to clashes. I tried to point out that the clashes between farmers and the Fulani herdsmen was a recent phenomenon which could not be solved by issuing threats to break up Nigeria. I reminded the Afenifere leaders that there was a special breed of cattle in the Southwest called ‘Elila’ imported from Argentina by the late Chief Obafemi Awolowo. They were bred locally. But where are they now?

They became extinct as they were not replaced. We didn’t have any clash then. The largest abattoir in Africa was completed in Ibadan, Oyo State since May 2011 but the Oyo State Government has not allowed it to be commissioned for inexplicable reasons. In the Second Republic, the Adekunle Ajasin administration in Ondo State had a ranch in Otun Ekiti. Those who took over the government after him could not maintain the place. The Southwest region consumes 10,000 heads of cattle daily. It has not occurred to any of the governors to set up a ranch and abattoir to produce meat and send it to other parts of the region. That is the only way to stop this menace. The Federal Government through the Federal Ministry of Agriculture has to solve the problem by establishing ranches and abattoirs all over the country. It is as simple as that. It is not rocket science.

Q: What would be your suggestion to the Buhari government on the issue of fuel scarcity? Would you support the removal of fuel subsidy?
A: The Olusegun Obasanjo administration increased fuel price eight times and Jonathan increased it once. At the end of the day the crisis of fuel subsidy has remained with us. What some of us say is that you must not punish the people of Nigeria for the negligence of the ruling class. Why should Nigerians be punished for the criminal behaviour of the bandits who smuggle oil across the borders? How can a government of a modern state be so helpless in the hands of oil thieves? Nigeria is the only oil producing country that imports refined petroleum products. Unless we have refineries, the problem will continue. The Dangote Group is constructing a refinery which may not be ready until 2018. So, within the next two years, what should the government do? Firstly, the government should build modular refineries, which can be constructed between six and nine months. They are not expensive and they are effective. Many of our neighbouring countries have such refineries. Secondly, you don’t need to go to Europe and America to refine crude oil and then import fuel for local consumption. The NNPC is allocated 445,000 barrels per day for domestic consumption. The NNPC sells the allocation through what is called ‘oil swap or scam’.

A few years ago, I persuaded NNPC to refine in some of the neighbouring countries. Today, Nigeria refines 60,000 barrel of crude oil from Cote d’Ivoire which has no oil. That’s why we have suggested that crude oil be refined in African countries and that will reduce the cost of freight or the expensive ‘landing cost’. Even right now there is a lot of fraud in the fuel subsidy regime. The government is yet to confirm the number of litres of Premium Motor Spirit, PMS, consumed by Nigerians daily. The government has to look at the management of the subsidy regime. There is an agency called Petroleum Equalisation Fund, which is allocated billions of naira annually, and the purpose of the agency is to ensure that fuel is sold at the same price all over the country. The agency is supposed to bridge the difference for marketers. Thirdly, the government has to ensure that the regulatory agencies function effectively. Therefore, while we await the emergence of new refineries in the country by the Dangote Group and others, the government should quickly build modular refineries. Once you can refine locally the so-called subsidy would be removed.

Q: Minister of State for Petroleum Resources, Dr. Ibe Kachikwu said government will begin a partial removal of subsidy from next year and looking at fixing price at N97…
A: That is the wish of the government. The price of fuel is fixed by law. Section 6 of the Petroleum Act imposes a duty on the minister to fix the price of petroleum products. The minister has to look at the law and the PPPRA Act which has also imposed a duty on the government to sensitise the public and meet the stakeholders before announcing a new price of fuel. To the best of my knowledge the PPPRA board has not met to take a decision. No mobilisation or sensitisation has taken place. I want to assume that the government is not trying ro provoke Nigerians by increasing electricity tariff, fuel price and road tax at the same time. This is not the change that the APC promised Nigerians during the electioneering campaign.

Q: Much has been said about the Abacha loot. We have heard various claims by the former Finance Minister and Coordinating Minister of the Economy, Dr. Ngozi Okonjo-Iweala on how much they have recovered so far and how much have been spent. What have you to say about this very sensitive issue given the fear that the loot has been re-looted?

A: It has now been confirmed that the Abacha loot has been re-looted contrary to the claims of Madam Ngozi Okonjo-Iweala and the World Bank. Whereas Nigerians were told that only $500 million had been recovered and that indeed, the recovered loot been judiciously spent, not less than $4 billion has been recovered.

Q: How did you arrive at that figure?
A: I arrived at the figures from those who recovered a substantial part of the loot. During the General Abdulsalam Abubakar regime, a panel of enquiry was set up. At the end of the exercise, the Abubakar junta recovered $635 million; £75million; 30 million Deutsche Mark and N9 billion as well as several properties in Lagos, Abuja and Kano including 40 per cent interest in a refinery in Sierra Leone. The totality of the recovery is over $1 billion. The funds and assets are listed in Decree No. 53 of 1999. Under the Olusegun Obasanjo administration the recovery continued. In the second volume of his book, ‘My Watch’, Obasanjo said by the time he left office, his government had recovered $ 2 billion; £100 million; and over N10 billion in cash and properties. Even under President Jonathan, the recovery also recorded success. While withdrawing the charge of N446 million theft against Mr. Mohammed Abacha, the government issued a statement to the effect that the action was taken to facilitate the recovery of $380 million from Luxembourg and $550 million from forfeiture proceedings instituted by the U.S. government.

Furthermore, the government claimed that there was a recovery of $222 million from Liechestein, in addition to 7.5 million Euros that was recovered from another associate as well as £22.5 million from Jersey, an Island in the UK. In confirming the criminal diversion of the Abacha loot, Okonjo-Iweala has admitted that she gave $322 million to a former security adviser, Col. Sambo Dasuki and that $700 million was expected from abroad. But in addition to what she admitted, another sum of £5.5 million was given to Dasuki. There was no appropriation. She alluded to what she called the urgency of the situation. That was a ‘self-induced urgency’ to warrant the illegal release of the fund. But when the same administration wanted to take a loan of $1 billion, there was enough time to approach the National Assembly for approval.

President Jonathan went to the National Assembly for approval in September last year to take a loan of $1 billion to buy military equipment. How can a finance minister say that she did not need parliamentary approval to release N68 billion because of the urgency of the situation. Last year, I asked Okonjo-Iweala for the inventory of the arms bought with the $1 billion loan, she said she could not give me the inventory as it was a “military affair”. That was a euphemism for the criminal diversion of the money. I hope the World Bank will assist her to account for the illegal release of the Abacha loot which was later shared by PDP chieftains. The bulk of the sharing took place after the presidential election. They were so daring in the criminal enterprise. For goodness sake, all the indicted persons should pay for their perfidious role in the armsgate.