Alhaji Abdulkadir Balarabe Musa is the former governor of defunct Kaduna State and National Chairman of People’s Redemption Party, PRP. The 77-year-old chartered accountant and politician is widely known for his left-wing ideology and has remained resolute about it despite his old age. In this interview with FEMI ADI, Musa, who was elected and sworn into office in October 1979 but was kicked out on 23 June 1981 by the National Party of Nigeria, NPN-dominated House of Assembly for failing to compromise his integrity, bares his mind on issues of impeachment, insecurity, the Chibok girls and ways to end insurgency. He also explains reasons the military may take over again. Recently the Adamawa State lawmakers impeached Governor Murtala Nyako and in Nasarawa the same thing is being revived. What is your reaction to this gale of impeachments? [caption id="attachment_8971" align="alignleft" width="300"] Alhaji Abdulkadir Balarabe Musa[/caption] In the first place, it had affected other governors before Nyako. Between the time I was impeached and that of Governor Nyako, many governors, both within the ruling and opposition parties, were impeached. Now, let us clear an illusion that we have democracy, which people call nascent democracy. We don’t have anything like democracy now in the country. We are either deceiving ourselves or are ignorant of the correct situation in the country. What is happening in Nigeria has nothing to do with democracy. What we really have is a civilian rule, as opposed to a military rule, which of course is desirable. But definitely it is far less than what can be justifiably called democracy. Democracy means the supremacy of the will of the people. Is there any indication of the supremacy of the will of the people? There are institutions that have been established to concretise this idea of the supremacy of the will of the people, such as separation of power and so many other things, but they’re so bastardised that it doesn’t even make sense. Look at the high level of corruption, stealing and criminal waste of resources. Look at the level of insecurity, organised violence, collapse of public services and the unfortunate situation where over 20 million unemployed post-secondary school graduates are roaming the streets. If you consider what I have mentioned, can you call the situation in Nigeria a democracy or even nascent democracy when this is the reality on ground? I am disappointed that few people wake up when they are fed up with a governor and call for his impeachment. Do you think impeaching a governor will solve our problem? No. Until and unless the lawmakers understand that democracy is not about impeachment, but providing the people with good governance and dividends of democracy, we’ll remain backward democratically. I was impeached by an NPN-dominated house of assembly, but was the house able to provide any meaningful development to justify their claims for my impeachment? Again, I say No. I can also tell you now that nothing good will come out of these impeachments you are witnessing at the moment. You were once quoted to have said the way the present crop of politicians are handling the issue of governance is a sign of inviting the military to strike again, like they did in 1983 when Alhaji Shehu Shagari was overthrown. Do you hold the hold the view? Definitely! Yes, I once said it is an indirect way of warning Jonathan. If you critically study the way things are going, you will see that this is how Shehu Shagari invited the military in 1983. He was told what to do about the state of the nation. He was also told by friends and even opponents. I can remember vividly, I personally met President Shagari, but I doubt if he considered all that we told him before the military struck. It was on the very day I was with President Shagari at about 9pm that the coup was announced. This was shortly after I advised Shagari about the state of the nation; in particular, the renewed conflict between the Peoples Redemption Party, PRP, and the National Party of Nigeria, NPN. And later, after the coup, when we were in detention, I got to know that Waziri Ibrahim also advised him on the same line and so did the Governor of Borno State at that time. At that time, his party leaders told him that he was invincible; there was nothing the opposition could do. Eventually, it led to my impeachment. But it cautioned NPP, which was then in alliance with NPN, to withdraw from the alliance. For the NPN, it was the road to collapse. And the situation now is even more serious because in totality, while Shagari was identified with implementing the reactionary policies of the NPN, now Jonathan has been narrowed down so much, that he’s only identified with an ethnic group, not even the Niger-Delta, not the South-South, but with the Ijaws. I hope I’m not correct, but this is the impression. Now, how large is the Ijaw nation in the context of Nigeria when we’re talking about power? Can you compare by any sense, for instance, the Igbo grievances which led to the 1966 coup with the grievances of the Ijaws today? If you regard the grievance of the Ijaws, however relevant or genuine, it is secondary in terms of national politics. But this is what he has identified with and he has not tried to make the people of Nigeria believe it is not so. I can be convinced it is so, only if we take statistics of the role of the Ijaws in the governance of Nigeria. It is then that the allegation can be justified; and nobody has done so. It is now over 100 days after the Chibok girls were abducted by Boko Haram. What, in your view, is stalling the rescue of these girls? Of course, it is obvious that it is incompetence on the side of the government. Those in government have been deceiving themselves that the work they can do and ought to be doing can only be done if they used former colonial masters and imperialists. This shows complete incompetence, because this issue can easily be dealt with by the government. In the case where the governments, both federal and state, have spent at least one quarter of the annual budget on security for the past two or three years including this year, without being able to contain the Boko Haram, is worrisome. And look at this latest incompetence which apparently is being covered by a series of conspiracy amongst the Nigeria’s institutions! It was announced that President Jonathan has established a committee to deal with the problems of the victims of Boko Haram. There is no doubt that the establishment of the committee shows great incompetence on his side again. First of all, he mentioned among the terms of reference that the committee will source money for assistance to victims of Boko Haram. Clearly, anybody who has sense, who understands the situation in the country, should be able to know that it is not possible for this committee to succeed without dialogue and amnesty. Because if there is dialogue and amnesty, however weak, the Boko Haram attacks will reduce because some of the members of Boko Haram must be tired by now. I believe people must have realised the truth that Boko Haram has nothing to do with Islam since it spares nobody. Secondly, the dignity of humanhood is very fundamental in Islam. If the so-called Boko Haram members don’t respect the dignity of man as enshrined in the Qur’an and Hadith, then I expect the government to know what to do. But they have failed to act accordingly. So, how can this be dealt with by a weak government, which knows that it is weak, but talking because, it’s unable to arrest corruption, stealing and criminal waste of resources? It is unable to stop unemployment. For me, it means the government is really weak. If it is, how can such a government defeat Boko Haram? What it means is that this committee will function while Boko Haram attacks continue. Already government is spending one quarter of our annual budget on security yet, it doesn’t stop Boko Haram. This is a clear evidence that Boko Haram is on the winning side, at least intellectually. If the government fails to dialogue or grant amnesty to Boko Haram, let’s be rest assured that their activities will increase by at least 100 per cent within the next few years. Secondly, let me inform you that Boko Haram is not the only source of insurgency in the country. For instance, how can you just say every bombing in this country is carried out by Boko Haram? You know these bombings will eventually bring down the whole country with time, just like armed robbery started in the South-East then. I remember, people in the South-West, in the North, said armed robberies were as a result of the sufferings of South-East people after the civil war. But eventually, after 10 years what happened? These armed robbers operated throughout the country so much that even villages were involved throughout the country. In the villages, even if you don’t know the armed robbers, you probably know those who give information to armed robbers. So, Boko Haram is likely to operate throughout the country. How can this committee solve the problem when the whole government has not been able to solve the problem of Nigeria? How can a mere committee solve the problem? Look at another thing, and people should be very critical. I’m saying critical about this, not simply because of my opinion but because I’ve been mentioned as one of the members of the committee. If you look at the terms of reference and the composition of the committee, and the fact that international institutions, at least four of them, are involved, it means massive amount of money will be raised. Maybe we’ll be able to raise even as much as the annual budget of Nigeria. Now, I can tell you that in the end this massive amount of money will not be effectively managed, just as the government has been unable to manage the budget. Which means the committee itself will end up being another source of corruption or the committee will be incapacitated by the problem that seems to be incapacitating this emergency relief fund which has been made under Aliko Dangote. But it’s going to raise massive amount of money, probably equivalent to the annual budget of the Federal Government, and there is a possibility of this money being diverted with the choice of sub-committee members of the committee. There is possibility of this money being diverted and used for the purchase of arms because the Federal Government is desperate. That is why this committee was being announced. It was also announced that the Federal Government is asking the National Assembly to give it power to borrow N1.6 billion to purchase arms to match the arms of Boko Haram. So, you can see that these people don’t see that there are Nigerians who are informed, who can see and assess the effect on the country. They just made that announcement, but you’ll see also the clear failure of the government when they attempt to use this committee. I don’t know what has happened; maybe I’m wrong but the media I read every day, have not commented at all on this very significant aspect. All that the media have reported is the establishment of the committee. But the media have not dealt on any critical comments on this, I don’t know if I’m wrong. It is a very serious national issue. Why? Another thing is this. Look at the composition of members of the committee. It doesn’t show any attempt to inspire confidence because virtually every Dick and Harry is there on the committee. Look at another thing; who is the chairman of the committee? T.Y. Danjuma. Someone who is very rich and comfortable; very much connected with the government in significant ways. How can such a person have the feeling of the victims of these atrocities? How can he? By accident as a person, he may have because he has been a philanthropist of note for some time now. But what is needed for the leadership of the committee is more than him. He should not be involved because he’s too powerful and therefore too comfortable and can only have marginal feelings for victims. He’s also connected with the government in very fundamental ways that people will see the committee as one of maneuvres of a desperate government. If the northerners feel federal government has failed in handling the problem of insecurity in the region, particularly in the north-eastern states, why have the elders of the North like you not taken steps to talk to the sect members involved to cease fire and allow peace to reign? Well, this is why informed Nigerians, particularly the media, are wrong. Am I in government? Am I rich? Who cares to hear me other than people who have conscience? And these people who have conscience in Nigeria, what have they been able to do about this negative state of the nation? If I were in a specific position, if I were in a real position, you could say the same thing. So, these northern elders are old people who are powerless, they may have respect quite alright, but there is nothing they can do about Boko Haram. And remember the type of constitution we have, which has established executive president, executive governor, and executive local government chairmen. The executive is so powerful and protected by the constitution that once you have him, you either hope or despair. He is so powerful, that is even the justification for the faulty impeachment, because if a leader is so powerful, the only way you can check him is to remove him constitutionally if he misuses that power. That’s why in spite of the way it is implemented, this impeachment clause in 1999 Constitution of the Federal Republic of Nigeria is just right. It might be dangerously being misused, but I think it is just right because the executive is too powerful. Look, the President of Nigeria can decide everything and there is nothing anybody can do. In fact, even this constitutional provision for impeachment cannot apply to the President of Nigeria. It can apply to the governors, yes, but for the President, it is very, very difficult. Unless we have a situation, even if we have a situation bordering on civil war, unless the military intervenes effectively, there cannot be impeachment. If the military for instance gives ultimatum to the government that something should be done, I think with the situation in Nigeria today, it will be done, but otherwise it cannot. Look at how powerful the President is. The President today can order simultaneously the impeachment of every governor in this country, including PDP governors and opposition governors, and it will be done because the President is powerful. With power under the constitution and with control of resources of the country, he can do it. But where you said the elders don’t have the resources and the powers, what about the governors who are supposed to be the chief security officers of their states, the House of Assembly members, the senators, the House of Reps members who are currently in power and from northern region. Are they also handicapped? You know, let us even talk about the North for the sake of making clear issues not because of this mindset. Look, these northern leaders are more articulate than their southern counterparts ideologically because for a very long time they have been rooted in the system which existed for probably 1,000 years before that system came to the South. Look at this sarauta (kingship). It existed for 1,000 years or even more before colonialism and it covers the whole of the North, irrespective of religion. But in the South when did it emerge? Yes, we know in Benin and Oyo Empires it emerged, but the power for instance of a chief, an Oba, Obi or whatever you can call it in the South-West, was not more than the power of a village head in the North, and that is reflected even today. Can you compare the power for instance of Emir of Kano with this constitutional arrangement in this country? Can you compare it by any imagination with any Oba or whatever you call it in the South-West? I know that the psychology or rather the ethics of power in the North and the South-West and the Benin Kingdom look the same, but it is not the same. It looks the same only in the sense that for instance, in the case of the Yoruba Empire the Oba was called Kabiyesi. In the North he is called the equivalent to the Oba, that is, the Emir was called Sarki Yanka, Ranki Shadede (You head hunter, may you live forever). It is virtually the same in Yorubaland, maybe to some extent even in Benin, because I experienced it in Benin one time. When I was on duty there, I was attending a Federal Government institution, where I was a member of the board. One day we arrived and found that everybody had shaved his hair, because something connected with Oba required everybody to do that. Look at how primitive that was! In spite of this, from the time Nigeria was colonised by British, from 1904 till today, there is some similarity between the sarauta in the South and sarauta in the North; it was just similarity, but not in essence. So, you can see these northern elders grew up from a system of repression for 1,000 years before that emerged in the South and it means the northern elders, particularly those who rose from the emirate system, are more capable of organising themselves on class basis with their equivalents in the South. But why is it that all these attributes you’ve mentioned have not been brought to the fore by these leaders who are in government to contain the activities of Boko Haram? Rather there are allegations in some quarters that they have a hand in how Boko Haram emerged? I don’t think they have hand in how Boko Haram emerged and how Boko Haram has been successfully taken over by other political forces. So you can’t blame them for that. But there is a possibility that they have their strategy, because there are some of them who think critically. They think the foolish way things are being conducted today by the federal government can even make them more powerful. For instance, if the federal government becomes completely on the verge of collapse, there should be no basis for anyone to express grievance, since power is reasonably shared. For instance, they may be opposed to what Jonathan as President of Nigeria from the Ijaw is doing; but if they advise him he can dismiss it. No matter how powerful he is, he is not working alone, he’s working with every section of Nigeria. So why can’t they put Jonathan on the correct path? Perhaps, the strategy they are adopting is to let him overwork himself, so that they can easily take over power from him. Of course, the northerners have the numerical strength and now, unlike before, they have the resources. In fact, the richest person in Africa comes from the North. What more can you say about sharing resources and economic power? There are also allegations that some governors and individuals who are powerful in the North are sponsoring Boko Haram to destabilise Jonathan's government . How true is this? They cannot do it because the amount of money and organisation required to sustain Boko Haram is beyond the power, economic and otherwise, of a governor or even a combination of governors. These governors actually cannot unite themselves because they have differences in religion, ethnicity and money power .There is no way they can coordinate a policy against the Federal Government. That’s why the elders you’re talking about can come in; but the elders are not as powerful as the governors and some of them will not accept dictation from the governors. I don’t think in the whole of the North there is a governor who has the credibility, capacity and power to inspire people, gather meaningful elders and talk to them. Some of them would regard him simply as someone using his incumbency, some would regard him as immature – I mean, they knew how he came to be and so on. Now it appears that we are at a crossroads, what would you suggest as the way out of the current insecurity ravaging the North? I don’t think the President has the moral and political power to do a thing like this. And this is one thing he should be told. He should be a true Nigerian, concerned with the position, unity and progress of Nigeria, irrespective of where he comes himself. If he can to do that, he will win the support of the rest of Nigeria to solve the problem. For example, virtually all sections of Nigeria, except very few, are in favour of dialogue and amnesty to Boko Haram. If there is a referendum today, those who are advocating dialogue with and amnesty to Boko Haram will win because, they know how to arrive at peace. Secondly, they know what dialogue and amnesty did in the case of the Niger-Delta militants. But the President is against Boko Haram, dialogue and amnesty to Boko Haram, because even though he has been mentioning it, foreigners don’t want him to do so. The assumption is that even if Boko Haram insurgency continues, he will be unable to deal with this exploitation of Nigeria’s resources by foreign interests. For instance, look at our oil resources, if the President has peace and unity in the country he will not allow this level of exploitation of our oil resources to serve the interest of foreigners, because it is these foreigners that are responsible for advising Nigerian government to embark on this ruinous privatisation, commercialisation and deregulation and minimum government. It is they (foreigners) who advised him on what to do in the interest of their own economies. So, to solve the problem Jonathan must accept to dialogue and if possible, start implementing amnesty policy. The National Conference has come up with its recommendations. Are satisfied with the level of discussions and outcomes? I am not satisfied with the level of discussions and even the outcome because all these dealt with the secondary issues. What is the socio-economic and political system controlling all developments in the country and the political leadership inevitably produced by this system? For those who are informed observers and patriotic, the root of the problems we are facing, which the National Conference attempted to deal with, is the socio-economic and political systems controlling all the developments in the country and the particular political leadership inevitably produced by the system. Both the system and leadership are based on the self-interest first, public interest second or even incidental. Until you reverse the situation and have a system based on public interest first, self-interest second, you will continue to have this negative state of the nation. And we have history behind us to indicate the correctness of a system based on public interest first. During the First Republic and the colonial period, these problems we’re battling with now, the problems of disabling level of corruption, stealing and criminal waste of resources, insecurity, unemployment, collapse of public services, the mindless quarrelling within the ruling class, were not as much as we have today. During the colonial times and the First Republic, nobody could steal public funds or corporation funds, nobody could steal their monies and get away with it. I have always worked in finance since I started work in 1953. Up till 1975 when I retired, I was either working in the treasury or I was a financial administrator or second in command in public institutions. So I know when corruption and these problems emerged. They all emerged during the Second Republic. During the colonial times and First Republic they were not there, and I’ve given you an example of public funds; nobody could steal any public funds and get away with it. He would be investigated, prosecuted and if found guilty he’ll go to jail whoever was his father or godfather and so on. I can give examples of persons in power today in Nigeria who were found guilty at that time. In terms of insecurity, nobody could organise violence resulting in loss of lives and property without also being investigated and if found guilty, punished. In those days, we used to have this organised violence only at intervals of 25 years, mostly in connection with land or community quarrels in the South and in the North in connection with the conflicts of economic interest of Igbos and the Kano people. And because of the leading role of the government in the system, these were contained. But from the Second Republic, 1979 till today, we have been having these organised violence at intervals. Do you think the Confab was necessary? If it was necessary how do you suggest the issues should be articulated and what issues? In the first place, the conference Nigerians have been asking for is different from the conference that the President organised. The conference Nigerians were asking for is a conference of elected representatives of the people but the conference organised by the President now is a conference based on his own agenda. His overview is very narrow on his agenda for the 2015 elections. That’s why he has been the deciding factor. In the conference, it is he who came to agree that there should be a conference, even though he was opposed to it for a very long time. He later decided for his own purpose to have the conference and it was he alone that appointed the committee for the modality of the conference. It was he that gave them the terms of reference and everything. It was he that single-handedly appointed everybody who participated in the conference. So the conference is not a national conference but a presidential committee to manipulate the situation in the country, either for his own idea of national stability or for his interest in the 2015 elections; you can’t see beyond that. Would you accept the outcome, now that it has submitted its recommendations? None of them mentioned the roots of the problems of Nigeria and the problem is the system; the leadership produced by the system. Most of them, selected to participate in the confab, were responsible for the present negative state of the nation which the so-called conference is supposed to deal with, which they have not dealt with. Can you mention any member of the national conference who mentioned the root other than the result? Nobody. Their attention was drawn to this in a very articulate way, but they couldn’t face it because it will affect their class interest. A group of northern youths gave southerners ultimatum to leave the North when they visited the Emir of Kano recently. What is your view on this? Yes, certainly it is a threat, but I think they’re seeing what will happen and must be trying to draw attention. They may be reactionary but they’re drawing attention. For instance, there was this pass law allegedly introduced by either Imo or Abia state. Such could work against the same people who introduced it. Take the North and South, I think there are at least 20 times the number of people from the South that lived and worked in the North. And at least 20 times the number of northerners that lived and worked in the South. And if you take economic resources also, the economic resources of southerners living in the North are 100 times more than the northerners living in the South. And if you take bank deposits, you can see the proof of it and may even underestimate the extent. Now if these laws, because they’re similar to the laws in the apartheid South Africa, continue the South would suffer more than the North; so many times more than the North. Let me give you again an example using a negative factor. By 1966 the whole economic, political and administrative systems in Nigeria were controlled by the Igbos on merit, because they were very hard working. The North was nowhere to be found; it was an empty hunting ground. The South-West was competing only at a secondary level, but after the Civil War when the Igbos were removed from that pedestal, the Yorubas virtually replaced the Igbos in everything. In other words, where the Igbos dominated in Nigeria, the Yorubas took those places and this is the root of the grievances even today between the Igbos and the Yorubas. I can give you the secret of it because I’ve been involved in all sections of Nigeria. So if this continues, what is more likely is to force the northerners to be as aggressive and enterprising as other sections of Nigeria. I will give you a typical example also. There was a time when Ghanaians dominated certain aspects of Nigeria’s economy; maybe the lower aspect like carpentry, building and others. But when Ghana had a new government they had confidence in, they all left Nigeria. There was a time you’d find them everywhere in the North and South, but where are they now? They have all gone back to Ghana because Ghana is better. Now, when they left, the positions they left in the North were not filled by Igbos or Yorubas, but were filled by northerners because circumstances taught the North to be more enterprising than they were. In Kaduna here, car dealership is made up of core northerners. You go to sale of motor spare parts, it is now almost 60 per cent northerners; so circumstances forced them. So, if we don’t want to create hostility, if we don’t contribute to unnecessary antagonism, we should look at Nigeria as one people, one nation, and bring about even and progressive developments throughout the country, so that these notions of Igbo, Hausa and Yoruba will disappear. When you take into account Nigeria’s ruling class – the rich and powerful – do they talk about the Igbo, Yoruba or Hausa? No. It appears Jonathan is bent on contesting 2015 election against the wish of the North; for the reason that he breached a “gentleman’s agreement” Let me tell you the reality. Jonathan has no concrete support for election in 2015 outside the Ijaws and some parts of the South-South. Maybe some parts of the South-East but as far as the North and West are concerned, he doesn’t have support. How can Jonathan win a free, fair and transparent election leading to a legitimate government without the North and the South-West? You can talk about the differences between the North and the South-West with regards to him but fundamentally, they are opposed to at least his style of governorship, to such an extent that he’s not likely to get even 25 per cent votes in all of those states in North and South-West. Of course, it doesn’t mean that it is impossible for him; he can make a revolutionary change that will endear him to the whole country within a short time, particularly because he is the President of the country. As oga patapata (the big boss) he can inspire confidence that he can do wonders. I will give you an example with history also. Look at how Shehu Yar’Adua almost won the whole country. Look at how MKO Abiola won the whole country in spite of his history of always having close relationship with the ruling class. Because he demonstrated his concern for Nigerians and for the unity of the country maybe in a different way. Jonathan who is the President of Nigeria, the so-called elected President of Nigeria, has greater capacity to do wonders than Shehu Yar’adua and MKO Abiola did. Don’t you think Jonathan could use power of incumbency and possibly state apparatus such as the army, police and others within reach to rig or manipulate the election process and then emerge as the president? Let me tell you, if Jonathan tries to rig the elections he would go to prison. That was the consequence Shagari suffered in the end; he went to prison. If you recall, in the end the army came and Shagari went to prison and he was humiliated. He was alleged to be part and parcel of bringing about of the military takeover in 1983. Jonathan seems to be doing the same thing. He’s depending on the military and the police for his security arrangement for the country and gradually, giving much power to the military to encourage them to say, ‘Look, instead of we sacrificing our lives for these bloody civilians, let us take power and do what we think should be done’. There is that possibility. But there is a greater possibility of Jonathan being accepted as a national leader worthy of election in 2015 if he takes the correct actions. What are those correct actions that you think he can take for the North to support him? His problem is not the North. His problem is all over Nigeria. I told you that there are about 20 million post-secondary school unemployed graduates. Out of these 20 million, 15 million come from the South, only probably five million come from the North, maybe less. His problem is national not North. You know it is only in times of propaganda and campaign that his problem comes from the North. But he can take care of this if he can play his card in a patriotic way, as I said, within the next three months. He can do the wonders that Yar’Adua and Abiola did. Even Obasanjo in 1999, why was he loved? He linked up with the North through the northerners; that’s one. Secondly, he gave an image of a nationalist; a no-nonsense nationalist, disciplined and so on; that’s why he was voted in 1999. The South-West refused to vote him, but in spite of the South-West where he came from the rest of the country voted him and he became the President. INEC conducted the governorship election in Anambra and then later Ekiti ,where the incumbent lost election and there was no protest per se. What is your take on the whole election process? First of all, it is not possible under the present conditions in Nigeria to have a free, fair and transparent election leading to a legitimate government. Because elections are determined by the factor of money power. Since money power is the deciding factor in both politics and elections, it is not possible to have a free, fair and transparent election leading to a legitimate government. You can’t have a government declared by some other means other than free, fair and transparent election. The conditions for contesting election are so much based on money power. Let us say you want to contest a local government election; let us talk of the area where the cost is lower. It is in the North. In the South it is much, much higher to contest for position of a councilor. In the North, to contest councillorship and have hope of winning, you’ll have to spend at least N2 million, including campaign cost and everything. Besides, you also have to pay to your own party, except the PRP. The PRP is the only political party where you don’t have to pay for you to be nominated. But in all the other parties they set a fee for every candidate to pay before he is nominated. After certifying the condition under the Electoral Act, you have to pay. So, let’s say on the whole it will cost at least N2.5 million in the North. While in the South, where it is more competitive, because professors contest to be local government councilors, the cost will be between N5 million and N10 million. Now, what is the minimum wage in Nigeria? It is N18,000 per month; even that is not being paid. Some government institutions pay less than that; even private institutions pay much less than that. Now the least qualification for contesting as a councilor is secondary school certificate. In the North here, that secondary school certificate holder is unemployed, he doesn’t have the means to feed his family comfortably for even a week, so he has been completely ruled out. Those in the North with secondary education and above that could contest and win are those who are benefiting from the West in the system. Now someone who is sponsored by somebody cannot be contesting in free, fair transparent election; like this weakness of being used as a surrogate. In the South, it is much more than that. Now if you go to the state House of Assembly, the minimum cost is N10 milion here in the North and I told you in the South it will be three times or more than that because there the competition is much, much higher. For members of the House of Reps, just say N20 million. For a senator, it can be anything up to N50 million, for a governor I’ll say at least N1billion and for president, at least N50 billion. This is a reality and every Nigerian knows this and nobody dares to even deceive you and shout that what I’ve said is not 70 per cent accurate. When will Nigeria be free of this kind of lavish spending for election? Well, first of all, when the system and the leadership are responsible. When leaders put public interest above self interest. When we have this, then you can have a free, fair and transparent election or almost near to it. I’ll give you an example. I won the governorship of Kaduna State at a time when this was the only house I had throughout the world, I didn’t have kobo in the bank. But why did I win? Because, first, the monetisation of politics in election had not reached this level. Secondly, the much support I enjoyed was free and is not possible today in Nigeria. Whoever you are, you must buy it. And thirdly, the political parties in Kaduna State which were opposed to the NPN freely came and supported the PRP, which they considered more likely to win than any one of them. And at the time PRP had only six activists that had more than primary education; out of the six of us, only two of us could prove it. Myself who is a chartered accountant and one Ibrahim Barau who became our senator, who was a pharmacist; all the other four only claimed to have more than primary education and they had to produce it. Yet we won the governorship. Can you image it happening today because of first, the mass support which was free; and the election cost minimal. I could remember, I had to pay just N500 as election fee to the Electoral Commission then; my deputy also paid N500 and every other candidate paid N100. That was all we had to pay. Then there was this patriotism to defeat NPN by UPN, GNPP and PRP. The reason was that NPN members and leaders were so reactionary that they had to be defeated. Wherever there was an opportunity to defeat the NPN, we managed our differences and came together to defeat NPN. So, the UPN, NPP and GNPP and PRP came together to support one another against the NPN, something we’re trying to do through what we now call Third Alternative Alliance. And it succeeded, I became governor of Kaduna State without a kobo in the bank, without any property other than the house where I lived and perhaps I established a large scale farm in 1975 through bank loan by NACB. That’s all I had. I could feed myself, transport myself within. Can you imagine it today? So what is the fate of your party, PRP, which people see as the party of the masses now that you have admitted money bags have hijacked the political stage? Yes, we’ve been priced out, that is clear. We don’t have the money to even organise at the level required today to win elections. We don’t have the money. All that we have is the gut, patriotism and history. We had reality because we were in power and we performed and our performances were recorded. Just like in our days, there is need now for political parties that can perform; but there is none. Therefore this thing has made us relevant in spite of our weakness; at least we can shout more than others. Then why didn’t you join the APC? We have been an ideologically based political party since our beginning in 1950. We are clearly a socialist political party that is committed to socialist reconstruction of Nigeria, starting with the leading role of the state in the economy to ensure peace, equality, dignity of the human person and progressive and even development of the whole country. Is there any political party, whether registered or unregistered today, that can embark on this? We’re the only exception. This is why we didn’t join APC. Is the socialist ideology realistic in the kind of system we are operating in Nigeria? Let me tell you, first of all it is not. We’re operating a sort of capitalist system. But can you say Nigeria is operating a mixed economy; it is clearly a capitalist economy, because if it is a mixed economy you can have some leading roles of a state; some definite role of the state in the economy, like we had during the colonial times and the First Republic, where the leading role of the state in the economy was clear. The state did not dominate, because the private sector had always been free to participate; it only lacked the resources to participate. But Nigeria during the colonial times and the First Republic was run on the basis of a kind of mixed economy or non-capitalist economy with a serious and determined role in the economy. But since the Second Republic till today, Nigeria has been a capitalist system but poor and incapable capitalism because a true capitalist system would not allow this level of corruption, stealing and criminal waste of resources. A true capitalist system would not allow this level of corruption we have in Nigeria. Can you imagine it in America, Britain, or Germany or any one of these advanced countries? Can you even imagine it in the Third World? No, you can’t imagine it in the Third World except where they have a civil war. Like, for instance, in Somalia, Iraq, Syria etc. Yes, you can have this; but not in a stable capitalist country. The level of corruption we have would not exist in any stable country in the world. Now, PRP has been priced out, whether it is registered or not, it has been priced out. We cannot continue to be relevant or effective with this kind of money politics. But being a patriotic party rooted in history, we have a strategy to deal with this. Our first strategy is to deal with this deregistration of political parties and we are doing it not alone but with other political parties. Whether political parties which have gone on individually to challenge the deregistration like Fresh Democratic Party or other individual political parties or groups, I think now there are seven parties challenging the deregistration by INEC in court. We have achieved success because Fresh Democratic Party went to the Federal High Court to challenge the deregistration and the court declared that the deregistration by INEC was unconstitutional, and null and void. And the court’s decision has implication for every one of the political parties that was deregistered to have registered that success. Now we’re also in court either as a group of deregistered political parties as it is, say, for instance, with the Hope Democratic Party because Hope Democratic Party and 27 other political parties went to court during the case. We have also cases by individual political parties that continue, so, we have seven court cases challenging the decision. But that is in court. We’re going to court, but we’re also going politically.